The hiking trip and the girl...

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I agree with you Face of Boo- you should maintain your integrity. Dont lie about your beliefs. She may adjust, she may not, only Allah knows!

Problem is that she's trying to find out "what" made me leave Islam, as if losing faith happens suddenly, I was trying to explain her it's the result of years of research, reading and thinking, no former religious person wakes up on the morning and decides to become an atheist, in my case it was something very gradual, honestly, I no longer recall the details in the Qur'an that repulsed me, this was like 10 years ago and I didn't look back since then.
However, the main trigger that made me doubt Islam is something i can't tell her because it's about the moralities of the religion's founder - there's no way to tell her without extremely degrading the widely-believed ideal image of Mohammad.

There are also opposing moral values, for instance in one conversation while she was trying to explain about the purpose of living (according to Islam, we're brought to life to worship Allah and souls are judged later on this basis - only those who follows Islam enter the paradise), I pointed out it would be much fairer for the all those "souls" on earth if Allah distributed the prophets all across the globe, instead of summoning them all in the Middle-East (some Muslims speculate that some prophets did appear elsewhere in the globe but they were rejected by their people, however no historical evidences exist for such claims), I was also trying to imply that there was many other faiths in human history.

What was her reply? A typical hardcore Islamic response, for her Islam was there among humanity since its beginning, way before Mohammad, and it was firstly brought to Adam (hence Adam, Noah, and all prophets were true Muslims too) , but after centuries some peoples 'refused' the Message and adopted man-invented religions instead hence the appearance of pagan and other non-pagan religions, all other religions/faiths (including aboriginal Australians lol) that exist(ed) in the world are either man-invented (as Islam isn't man-invented) or modified/corrupted versions of Islam over the time. So all those who are currently holding other faiths today are descendants of those "unclean" peoples who rejected the Message of Islam (therefore they deserve hell), Moammad's mission was merely to remind humanity of the long lost Message.

Also she thinks that nothing justifies nowadays to remain on a religion other than Islam since most people in the world have access to the internet/media/tv ..etc lol, therefore any mentally functional non-Muslim person in the world would be exposed to Islam at some point and he/she has to believe.

So I was like "so all those about 2 Millard people in the far east are simply idiots now?" Lol


This is a very hardcore Islamic view of the world ( 'the pure people' vs the 'unclean'), not all Muslims are even aware of it or really believe in it, but this girl obviously does and it's common among the devout believers. In fact, It was one of the main reasons that repulsed me from Islam. This illogical complex of superiority regarding others and viewing them as inferiors and descendants of inferiors are things that disgust me now and defy all my current humanitarian values.



So as my final answer to deltafunction , I would certainly have no problem with a fairly agnostic Muslim girl that has unorthodox and tolerant views (like M. or even D. : http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt203486.html ) but not with someone like this, H. even asked me if I think it's possible to gradually return to Islam one day for some reason like 'falling in love with a girl' for example ( she literally said that lol ). I made it clear that I won't change my views just to please someone, she said she won't too.

I don't think this person is capable to live with a non-Muslim person, It's obvious that she won't even accept me before I fully convert back to Islam.

And honestly I don't think I can live with someone who views me as a being who deserves to be burnt for eternity.

I decided to friendzone H. , she's not right for me. I will never go back to Islam.

"Disagreement about religion"

I have wondered about the possibility of disagreeing with a boyfriend about religion too. I believe in God, but not any specific religion. I think if kids will be involved, it's probably not a good idea to mix them up! However, when I see the various difficulties of marriages around me, I honestly think that religious differences are almost minor.....Its like expecting someone to agree with you on everything- it's impossible. I would suggest treating it more intellectually- as though it is merely an intellectual disagreement, such as politics....I mean it's hard enough to find love at all without looking for reasons to sink it before it even has a chance....Also, think of it this way- if your opinion can change from one day, year or decade to the next (as it already has), then what really IS AN OPINION? Is it something to throw away a rlshp over? It might actually bond you together in a weird way if you can have a sense of humour about it!

An interesting approach. I could never date a religious person, though, as to me it signifies a core difference in our way of thinking (about everything). A mind that follows a religious belief does not match with my mind. I can certainly be friends with these people, and I am the only person in my family who is not religious so that obviously works too. But I want a greater "understanding" with my romantic partner.

I don't just have "an opinion" about religions, I have a certain way of thinking about it which is the same way I think about most things. So I can kind of see how two people of different religions could still be compatible, but one atheist and one theist? Hard work, IMO.

I understand your point and you may well be right about it but sometimes, like when I see what difficult terrain my married friends must traverse in order to stay together, I think to myself- we have NO IDEA what the real difficulties of a marriage/partnership will be ahead of time and they are NOT USUALLY ANYTHING LIKE what we THINK, plan and predict they will be! I could be wrong but wouldn't that be a great question to survey your coupled friends with?

I also think that single people, and especially younger single people (and probably various stubborn people) have somewhat rigid and unrealistic ideas of what compatibility and "understanding" are and what is needed to Make a relationship work.

I guess if I really like someone, I overlook all kinds of things I might have weeks prior told people would be 'deal breakers". An example is smoking. I swore up and down I would never be attracted to anyone who smoked in a million years....guess who I was engaged to not too long afterward? Of course- a smoker. I didn't like that he smoked, but I loved him so much, it suddenly didn't seem like such a big deal. I felt lucky to know him instead.

Yeah, I understand, I was just interested in what your answer would be.

I could never see myself living with an extremely religious person either, when I am very secular. It would require a lot of pretending or suppressing of your true self that just wouldn't be worth it in the long run.

I would just accept, don't obsess or worry about.

If she want to be friends fine, but you aren't a pet project for a born again conversion. Btw if she is religious she already knows you are damned. There isn't a second attempt at Islam.

She admitted today that she feels jealous when she sees other girls hitting on me, that was an obvious... announcement.


I do not understand, if I am damned, then why ....?

True that, but I don't think the majority literally follows this one, many advised me to return to my religion.

You've known her for all of a couple of weeks and she's witnessed multiple other girls hitting on you? Well you obviously have a large pool to fish in, have you considered any of the other fish?

It's not that much ...they were just two girls, and not much of potentials.

She doesn't seem to care about my "apostate" state:

-She never called me an apostate, kafir, or anything like that.
-She thinks I deserve a best in several situations (how comes an apostate deserves the best??! lol)
-When I donated blood to a friend's mother of ours, the nurse gave me a chocolate and juice to take them just after donation, she told me they're from her (how comes she encourages me for doing a such apostate act?? = eating in the fasting month before dusk).
- Religious debates aside, she's not trying to convert me back, there's no single attempt from her in this direction.

You do know two people with different religions can still love each other and do well, even without marriage or children?
Hmmm... if she's jealous about you hitting on other girls then something tells me that she'd accept your beliefs as long as you drop the whole issue of finding ways for a relationship to not work. To be honest that is essentially what your saying and doing, making excuses for someone that you really got on well with initially but then you decided to stop as soon as you note her religion and her beliefs.

Not true, can't you see I am reconsidering in my last post?!

but I had every right to be wary from someone who believes in a religion that encourages killing former believers!

and you know it doesn't work without marriage for her, do you?

I guess this isn't something to rush, see how it goes. Just be honest.

People can often be in two minds, so it will be clearer later.

D. is up to something again...

She explained me yesterday about her that she's not able to have a relationship with anyone publicly because her kids' father would take their custody (in other term he let her to do all the raising as long she's not marrying again (or dating) )- Islamic custody law. Dunno why she told me this, go figure.

Today she was acting weird, following me all around the gym, trying hard to chit chat with me about anything, trying to 'assist' me in some workouts (aka touching...), interrupting every convo I was having with H.

Later on, she started trying to chit chat with H!! ! Trying to know about her.

Then she sent me a text asking me out for a whole beach day and asking me if i can take a day or two offs (just the two of us and the kids who will be in the kids pool :-/).

Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 31 Jul 2012, 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.