Could you be loved?

Post Reply New Topic

It's very hard to trust others to that extent that I would need for this when every time in the past I opened myself up emotionally I ended up getting hurt...

I don't understand. If I direct all negativity inwards, I'm not projecting it out onto those around me. It takes a lot to get me angry (even my ex making up a story about cheating couldn't do it, either when she first mentioned it or when she mentioned that she lied to me)... I figured that by doing that, I would leave nothing but the more positive emotions for the folks around me, and therefore they might actually like me more because I didn't get negative with them, ever...

That's not how it works, dude.

Ever heard of self-affirmation? Where people got their lil post-it note stuck on the mirror, with some sappy hap-hap-happy phrase on it? They go & look in the mirror, recite the phrase once or twice when they get up to start their day.
That s**t actually works. Seems stupid, but it works.
It helps peoples mood & stress, they react to situations with optimism a bit more often.

You are doing the opposite. By giving voice to negative thoughts about yourself, and repeating it, you're reinforcing what could have been left as a vague notion. A vague notion, in comparison, is much easier to dispel than deep seated, entrenched, habitual attitude of negativity. Saying self-depreciating statements out loud, writing or typing them seem like minor, innocuous actions and thoughts. However, over time, it represents something significant. Cumulative. Subtly powerful. Your mood can more easily follow the dark path forged by your words. Your judgments become more pessimistic, you give up easier.

To make matters worse, it doesn't just affect your attitude... It also affects others' attitudes toward you. When others see/hear you say those things, you give them little reasons to have less faith in you. It's another one of those less-than-conscious things, we don't think about it literally when we see/hear such things, but it gets processed nonetheless. If people see or hear enough little reasons to have less faith in you, then they eventually treat you as such. Often times, it doesn't even take much to get those resultant reactions from people. Some people really 'follow their gut' and jump to assumptions very easily. You know, the kind of people who wanna judge you based on your handshake.
But more reasonable people do it, too. You know how people judge based on your posture? Same deal here.
Heaven forbid a woman you're interested in hears you say that s**t...

Finally, when you are more prone to a pessimistic attitude(as supported by the negative self-talk), you are less prone to take risks. When you are less prone to take risks, you're less prone to do/think/see/appreciate new things. And that means that random chance is less prone to put you into an unexpected moment of opportunity. By putting yourself in fewer variety of situations and perspectives, you see less instances of good fortune.

Now, you might argue, "Sure, but I also avoid unpleasant results and bad luck!"
To that, I would reply that good things happen more often than bad things. Bad things are simply easier to remember. And, in my opinion, the bad things usually aren't all that bad, from an objective point of view, minus our common fears.

You also mentioned that by using negative self-talk, you avoid redirecting your anger onto others. I don't think anger quite works that way.... But now I'm getting tired and can't quite find the ideas and words to back my claim.

Someone want to help me out here?

@Toad, go out and get "The Power of Intention" by Wayne Dyer. (If you don't have the cash, check it out of your local library.) It will provide an excellent framework for putting Sound's advice about positive affirmations (and curtailing the negative self-talk) into practice.

The whole point of @Sound's advice (advice I agree with whole-heartedly) is not to bury your negative attitudes about yourself, or to project them onto other people - it's to get rid of them. In order to do that, you need to learn a new set of skills - skills you do not have currently. Sound is providing an overview of the skills you need to learn, and I'm providing a resource. But you have to accept that you need new skills, and you have to make the effort to learn these new skills. So get to it.

As far as the anger goes, have you ever heard of the idea that depression is anger turned inward? Cause that's you, Toad. Based on information you've revealed in the last few days, I also think you have an addictive personality. It's not just the food, or your concerns about alcohol - it's a pervasive perfectionism that is handicapping you. You're an "all or nothing" kind of guy - and that is clearly not working for you. But first things first - go out and get the book. Read it, learn it, live it.

Oh, and btw, I'm very proud of you for your attempts to organize an inter-church youth group. Keep at that.

HopeGrows: I´m not meaning to "put you on the spot" right now, but I just want to explain why I took some of your comments the way I did.

This is the comment that led me to believe that you were recommending therapy for us all:

I experienced each and every one of the things you mentioned. However, these I would call the dysfunctions of our society; (yes, I too find our society unhealthy and dysfunctional). But as these dysfunctions, among many others, are continuous and ongoing, there isn´t much psychotherapy can do to help- (excepting continuous and ongoing therapy!)

This is one of the quotes that suggested to me that you thought we should "work on our problems":

[quote="HopeGrows")Look, no one expects an adult to throw a temper tantrum. While meltdowns may not be completely unavoidable, you can learn to cope with stressful situations more effectively, so that you can limit their frequency and severity. Alcoholics Anonymous teaches a little coping skill that I’ve always found effective (full disclosure: I am not an alcoholic, but I’ve known many in my life): “think before you drink.” This skill involves taking a moment to think through all of the consequences of taking a drink, e.g., falling off the wagon, losing your job, your spouse leaving you, etc. If you apply this technique to your own highly stressful situations, it can help take yourself out of the “heat of the moment” long enough to consider the consequences of your actions.
[/quote]

Actually, it is my observation that NTs have just as many temper tantrums as AS people. The difference is, we tend to have meltdowns over different things. Looking at the world through my eyes, most NTs seem overemotional and irrational. They seem to have emotional "breakdowns" over things which I just don´t understand. Likewise, when I have a "breakdown", they don´t understand it either; I think many of our problems seem trivial to NTs. Or, as they don´t experience that problem themselves, they just can´t comprehend, in the same way that I don´t comprehend many of their issues. As our problems are less common- like, for instance, sensory overload- they are often considered "less acceptable".

But actually, I agree with much of what you say, that it is important to work on oneself. This is something that most people don´t do enough! Just, what I was trying to say in my original Post, and maybe didn´t stress enough, is that it is hard to work on relationships preemptively, before one has even had a long term relationship! As I said, most of us have had fewer relationships, and FAR less experience than the average NT. What is most helpful though, is hands-on, "out in the field" experience. A good relationship can give one hope and self-esteem. A bad relationship can give one valuable learning experience. The lament of many Aspies is that they don´t know how to get into a relationship in the first place. What are the answers? I don´t know. Unfortunately, in our society, the people who are most true, loving and deserving of love don´t automatically get rewarded with love. "Attraction" is much more complicated than that, and no one seems to be able to explain it. I have seen many really nice guys be passed over time and again. And many men say they are attracted to "the b***h factor". Many people seem to be drawn to "drama", danger and excitement. I´m not saying we should change our core for them; all I´m saying is, there are no easy answers.

Another problem is that the books and self-help programs for relationships are not geared for Aspies, they are geared for NTs. They don´t address our particular difficulties. They don´t even explain things in a way we can understand. As only one example, I´m sure we have all heard the phrase "the key to a good relationship is direct, honest communication". But only an NT will know intuitively that this is true "some of the time". Or that sometimes, "some things are better left unsaid". That there is "a correct time and a correct place for honest communication". That in some situations, a "white lie is desired or even expected". And NT women will know instinctively that being too direct is a turnoff for many men, so they´ll change their approach slightly. But these things are not broken down for the Aspie. The Aspie would take this literally, as a rule, and then wonder why that rule did not work when they applied it in the real world.

Lastly, I wanted to explain that- short of abuse in one´s family history- there are several other reasons why Aspies, in particular, may find themselves in an abusive relationship:

1) Due to problems with socializing, many of us have fewer opportunities for relationships than the average person, so we may be more likely to settle for what we can get.

2) Most of us don´t have the ability to "read people" and pick up the early warning signs that might indicate future abuse. This ability may develop slowly over time, as we acquire more experience.

3) Many of us have trouble knowing what the proper boundaries are. Let´s face it, no one starts out obviously abusive- (otherwise, who would go out with them?). Abuse happens gradually, and is often subtle at first. As many social institutions feel unnatural to us anyway, and we have to squelch our gut instincts, it can be hard knowing what´s considered "proper" and "acceptable" in regard to how we should be treated in a relationship. Again, we may learn this over time.

4) We unwittingly tend to attract abusers like magnets, due to our social naivete.

Well, this has become quite a saga, so I guess I´ll stop here.

This is very true. I once went over 10 years without dating, because of my last relationship being from hell, in which I narrowly escaped with my life. This of course discouraged me from trying again for a long time. I settled, because there was much that I couldn't detect; early warning signs of an abuser are apparent to me now; but not then.

See above.

Again, true. Learning to squelch gut instincts, because of clashing social norms, placed me in grave danger many times.


True for me, too.

Yes, I can relate to all of those! Number 1), I would assume we struggle at every stage. Less friends to start with, hence meet less potential partners.

Something that irks me on the therapy issue, even for those who are helped by it, it grates my sense of justice that it's invariably the victims who end up in therapy, and paying for it. It would be nice if the perpetrators were held responsible for the long-term damage they do to other people. But I'm not holding any immediate hope of that happening.

And one more thing: age changes things. It seems to all change over time and with age. Helpful intervention is more possible at age 25 than at 45 or 55, for example. As well as needing quite different type of intervention. Whatever that may be, it's far easier to think of things to help the younger ones. While you may be a few years behind the curve at 25, you can be *decades* behind at 50.

@Morgana - Again, if you don't feel like therapy will benefit you, then there's no reason to go. I listed several examples of circumstances that could be the cause of emotional damage to Aspies. Emotional damage can be healed, so I just wanted to prompt people who read this post to consider whether some of their issues might be related to emotional damage, rather than Asperger's.

Clearly, the circumstances I described could be pretty easily applied to other people as well. For example, I could have probably substituted "gay" for Aspie. But while I'd recommend therapy to any gay person who'd suffered the kind of trauma I described, that recommendation would have nothing to do with suggesting they "fix" their homosexuality - just the emotional damage they've suffered. That's all I'm suggesting to any Aspie who's suffered emotional damage: try to find ways to fix the damage, not the Aspie-ness.

I disagree that the answer to living in a dysfunctional society is continual therapy. The goal of therapy is not only to identify, explore, acknowledge, and heal the pain, it's also to learn coping skills to avoid and prevent the damage in the future - to learn how to protect yourself; identify and avoid toxic people, etc.

For the record, I think everybody - Aspie and NT alike - should address any behaviors they engage in that are negative to themselves or those around them. Do I think it's okay for an NT to have a temper tantrum? No, it's ridiculous. I will tell you that anyone who wants to be in healthy, productive, happy intimate relationship would be well advised to avoid temper tantrums. Again, IMO, coping skills, stress management, etc., are the key to lessening and/or avoiding those type of behaviors.

I can't speak to whether the books I recommended can be understood by Aspies, because I'm not Aspie. However, you could certainly assess them and provide an opinion on the matter. My thought is that because they don't stress how to behave, but instead describe behavior that is healthy/unhealthy, they would probably make sense to Aspies and NTs alike.

I'd like to address your last issues as you wrote them:

"1) Due to problems with socializing, many of us have fewer opportunities for relationships than the average person, so we may be more likely to settle for what we can get."

It's always a mistake to settle for abuse. I have said this before, and I'll say it again: it's better to be alone than to be with the wrong person. The wrong person can and will damage you, break you down and leave you in far worse condition than you were in prior to the relationship.

"2) Most of us don´t have the ability to "read people" and pick up the early warning signs that might indicate future abuse. This ability may develop slowly over time, as we acquire more experience."

This is precisely the reason I suggested reading the material on dysfunction. You don't have to be able to "read people" in order to identify abuse. You have to be able to assess your partner's behavior against a measurement of what is abusive and what isn't. The books I recommended provide that measure. For example, how does your partner handle disagreements? Can he/she disagree with you without yelling, intimidating, personal insults, belittling, name calling, threats, etc.? Clearly, if someone calls you "stupid" or a "b***h" or "ret*d" or whatever, that's name calling. If someone makes you feel threatened or scared of being physically harmed, that's intimidation. That's abusive behavior - there's absolutely no interpretation needed. However, NTs often have difficulty in this area, but typically not for the same reasons Aspies might (inexperience, an inability to "read people," etc.). With NTs, I've found it's usually not about an inability to recognize abusive behavior, but more about a preference to deny that it's occurring.

"3) Many of us have trouble knowing what the proper boundaries are. Let´s face it, no one starts out obviously abusive- (otherwise, who would go out with them?). Abuse happens gradually, and is often subtle at first. As many social institutions feel unnatural to us anyway, and we have to squelch our gut instincts, it can be hard knowing what´s considered "proper" and "acceptable" in regard to how we should be treated in a relationship. Again, we may learn this over time."

Again, that's why i recommended the books I did. They describe proper boundaries. And yes, some people do become abusive early in a relationship. I recently ended a relationship with someone who started name calling while we were still in the "romantic love" phase of the relationship. When he did that, the fondness and affection I felt for him died immediately. I gave him a chance to take back what he'd said, and he made a half-hearted effort. But I'd seen the true nature of his character, and I had to choose to ignore what I'd learned about him or not. I chose to pay attention.

"4) We unwittingly tend to attract abusers like magnets, due to our social naivete."

You don't have to settle for naivete. You can educate yourself, and insist that any potential partner treat you with the respect you deserve.

According to 60s standards, I could be loved. According to today's standards, guys look elsewhere. I don't have a problem with that. It only frees me up to be myself, that much more. I'm not going to pretend to be like today's women, just so a man will fall for me.

I actually agree wholeheartedly with this (except reverse the genders for my case)... I am me, and I'm not going to be someone else just to placate the masses. Yeah, sure, I complain a lot about being alone, but I'm not going to compromise what little self I have left...

In that case, you should lament on this broader topic much less often.

It doesn't make me feel any better though. Why do I have to fit myself into a mold to attract women? The one thing I won't do to find a woman is lose my identity... what's the point of having a woman if I am not me anymore?

@Toad - The goal is not to "fit yourself into a mold" in order to attract women. The goal is to improve the person you are, which will give you a better chance to attract women.

@Toad - In regard to your quote above, and the quote below (from another thread):

"I've been reading a lot here about how a woman that will use whatever excuse to spend time with you probably likes you, which seems to me like a sign that should actually be readable to me. But I'm not seeing any of that in my life, with any women that I might come across in my life. If anything, most of the time women are trying to get away from me. I did see a little bit of this effect with my ex while we were together, and I know that I should be able to see this at the very least, but I'm not. Is it possible that there just isnt anything that women could possibly see in me?"

I can't stress enough how important it is that you stop giving voice - and giving power - to the negative self-concept that you have. Not only is it imperative that you stop the negative thinking, you absolutely have to replace that negative thinking with positive thinking. I suggested "The Power of Intention" by Wayne Dyer as an excellent resource for learning how to do that. You need to take action, and start working on this issue now - today.

Toad, it is not your weight that is keeping you from attracting a woman. I've known guys who are carrying an extra 100 pounds who can get women. It is not your Asperger's that is keeping you from attracting a woman. You clearly are capable of forming relationships with women, because you talk about having female friends - so the social skills you have may not be optimal (I don't know - I've never met you) but they are enough to get the job done.

However, you are completely crippling yourself with this constant stream of self-hate speak. It's like you've taken every word ever spoken to you by a bully or some other a$$hole and internalized it. It doesn't matter that you're not bullied daily any longer - you're doing it to yourself. And you have to stop it. You're destroying yourself, you're destroying your self-esteem - you're killing yourself with this bullsh!t, and you have to stop it.

I think the fact that you keep coming back to this forum is evidence that there's a part of you that wants to fix this problem, that wants to be free of it, wants to survive and thrive and be happy. I would love to give you just five minutes to live in the world that will exist when you change your perspective and start building your self-esteem (instead of tearing it down), start loving yourself (instead of hating), give yourself a break every day instead of the constant stream of criticism. But the only thing I can do, Toad is to assure you that a better world exists for you. All you have to do is be willing to make the change.

I have literally spent hours writing to you Toad, because I think you're capable of making that change. I think there's a part of you that hears me, and wants to believe. But I can't do it for you - no one can do it for you. That's why the whole idea of wanting to find a woman who will love you and accept you and therefore make your life worth living is such a selfish, dirty trick to play on yourself. There is no one else who can give you the gift of self-esteem - it's all you. And you can start building that self-esteem by no longer letting the part of you that was engineered and built by bullies and a$$holes run the frigging show. When the negative thoughts start, turn it off with some positive thoughts, affirmations, meditation - whatever works.

I want you to start today by responding to this post with three things that are good about you - no sarcasm, no qualification, no wit, no double-edged anything. Three positive things to say about Toad - or I am just not going to try anymore, Toad. You show me something - show me I haven't wasted my time - or I'm out.

umm... okay.

let's see here: I can fix computers, i can sing, and I can do artwork in photoshop (and I mean actual art, not just editing someone's face onto someone else's body)

is that good enough for you?

You can sing? Can you sing well? That can be really HOT!! ! Completely romantic. It can also be a lot of fun!

Well, I guess I can sing pretty well... but I'm a classically-trained bass (through my church), so most of the stuff I sing is religious stuff from hundreds of years ago... not exactly stuff you use to woo a woman.