Women SAY they want nice guys ...

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The issue, as ever, is one of different values and belief systems. Aspies are particularly bad at being aware of this, even when they've come across the idea before. Blame religion if you want or mass media or human nature, but the obvious fact is that everyone thinks their own truth is the only real truth. But of course it isn't. People come in all manner of cognitive set ups, like puzzle pieces that fit some others but not everyone. I am guessing Aspies have a hard time with this because they usually can't tell what the shape of the others is and whether it would fit them.

A few notes on the eponymous "friend zone": Being nice or at least being more or less polite is how you get NEAR a woman. You ain't getting anywhere near a woman until you learn how to have basic conversations with her and/or how to not alienate the s**t out of her immediately.

Here is a non-complete list of s**t what will get you designated friend, not date, material:

poor hygiene (BATHE! Use small amounts of scent if you want, but bathe with soap!)
psychological issues which prevent communication and no attempt to deal with them*
constant shit-talking of others**
inability to allow free time/spare time
fixation on mother figures/attempt to get women to take care of you***
inability to ask for things you want/resentment at me not being psychic
boundary violations****
never telling me you're interested in anything else *****

I like 'bad boys' for sex, because at least they bloody tell you they're interested, instead of making you guess what they want or being catty with you because you haven't responded to their fantasies of how you should be.

I'm willing to meet people half-way. I am not willing to be blamed for things they don't tell me, or to have someone only pretending to be my friend because they want in my pants. They can want in my pants, but they'd better appreciate my sterling qualities in the process, like my modesty and sweet natur....

I can't call myself modest and sweet-natured with a straight face.******

On the issue of cuckolding and the like, I ain't never going to understand why that's a problem. I have sent partners out to f**k someone else (and even paid for their date), and gone out to f**k someone else. Who cares? They're still coming back home to you (and usually still horny as hell to boot, with sexy stories. ) It's who you are to them that's important, not who's currently having sex with them. If you've built a good relationship with them, no matter how good the sex is, they're still going to want you.

It's not like good relationships are easy to make with people. Why would they throw a good relationship away over a few hours of sweaty time?

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* Everyone has issues. I got issues, you got issues, we all got issues. The point is not perfection, the point is to deal with them as best you can. You can actually get 'points' for trying hard, here, and for some consistency.

** Especially other women. If you're constantly shit-talking women, what do you say about me when I'm not around?

*** No woman, not even a domme (howdy, folks!), wants to be treated like your mum. Pick up your own underwear, do your own laundry, take care of yourself. Don't expect to find a housekeeper when you find a date. I mean, even in scenarios when someone is being a 'naughty slave,' someone has to pick up the mess afterward. Be willing to work.

**** If I tell you to stop doing something to me, you'd goddamn well better stop doing it. For instance, if I say 'stop trying to touch me', your hands had better stay on your side of the room. If I say 'I need to be left alone for a minute,' leave me alone for a minute. Nothing puts up more warning signs than people who won't respect your boundaries.

***** The times I've been fussed at for friend-zoning someone it has very directly been a product of some mother not actually telling me that he was interested in a romantic relationship. I tend to assume that, as long as he isn't actively displaying signs of discontent, he's okay with things. I'm not psychic.

****** Try to have a sense of humor about yourself. It's a good way to prevent yourself from staying depressed and to demonstrate reasons to be interested in you. Seriously, I'm funny and I don't care who's laughing. I trip over s**t that's not there, I notice things no one else notices, I'm obsessive about my games.... I am comic, often, by accident (and it's frequently slapstick humor). Crack yourself up.

SoulCakeDuck: Do you realize how much energy women expend on men? In between hidden requirements to take care of them, plus putting up with their bad habits, plus sometimes bratty behavior, plus the expectation that we're to stay in top shape and spend hours exfoliating, plucking, shaping and dying ourselves, plus being treated often like we're supposed to be at their beck and call (even in a D/s relationship where I'M the D, many times when I've dated men they're just assumed I'd be available to them on their schedules). Oh, and then there's the unacknowledged housekeeping, cooking, cleaning, schedule-balancing, counseling, emotional isolation that comes from men being trained in this culture to refuse to have discussions about their emotional state and/or engage in relationship problem-solving.....

Or maybe everyone has to put in a lot of energy because relationships are hard ass work?

And that's what I'm saying - it can't be a one-way relationship and be successful. Find someone who doesn't want you to be something you're not. Let the man who is naturally composed of rock/feather be with the woman who wants a man like that. Not every woman does, you know. If you are all rock, find a woman who is all feather, or vice versa. Let the rock/feather composites find each other.

If one is not happy with the partner that they have, whose fault is that? Who picked that partner? This is why we so often hear "you can't be in a successful relationship with another person until you have a successful relationship with yourself." Word. Know your own strengths and weaknesses, and seek a partner who complements them, not someone else's (including society's) "ideal" with whom you will constantly be at odds.

Me and my GF work very well PRECISELY because we're such little work for each other. Lots of varieties of relationships out there. I find social interaction draining enough at points: I simply couldn't handle a relationship otherwise.

What mouthyb and Eureka said.

Also, just because a person has a trait(s) you admire does not mean they would be a compatible partner for you (generic you). Tattoo that on your forearm (metaphor not to be taken literally)

Soul Cake Duck: Ah, I see I'm going to have this conversation again with someone. The partners in question were PhD candidates in mathematics, career IT people, other students and people who've been meaningfully employed for years of their lives. They weren't 'losers' by anyone's standard--I tend to date people who are some combination of intelligent, long-term employed, left leaning, politically active or sensitive and/or otherwise socially engaged. I've also dated film directors for local studios, employed musicians, other artists and/or writers and people with military in their backgrounds.

And you know what? Even though they were typically quite financially successful and/or stable in their personal lives, they still expected me to do a disproportionate share of the housework. Sometimes, it was on purpose. Sometimes, it was by default.

Acculturation toward certain behaviors: it tends to effect everyone.

I'm completely uninterested in what you define as a nice guy, because he's NOT NICE, merely sometimes polite and less likely to directly communicate his dislike of something.

As far as 'deranged' goes, it seems to me to be more deranged to whine about women not liking you while being fairly unlikable online, just based on the things you say to people.

perhaps.. most men are just as bad. Look up white male privilege, it may help you understand that you are not as wonderful as you seem to think you are. Btw, nobody is, but I implied as much earlier.

There are also a lot of cultural differences and even racial differences in behavior and assumptions that most people don't even pause to evaluate. I like to call these - givensies. The sets of assumptions so ingrained that we are essentially blind to them. I firmly believe that these things are at the root of most misunderstandings.

Soul Cake Duck: I'm not the only person trying to tell you these things, if you re-read the thread.

Value as defined how? Not being acculturated to have certain beliefs about gender? It would be nice not to be in a relationship with someone who wasn't acculturated that way but since every culture I've encountered so far has had beliefs about gender which designate certain work based on gender lines and we are social animals (by which I mean that we think, work and believe within a social context, even if we disagree with it), I'm going to assume that either you aren't aware of your own acculturation or that you're asking me to date aliens.

Which is cool. Any aliens out there wanna pick a girl up so we can blow this Popsicle stand? I ain't picky. Feel free to be green and have tentacles, or be a sentient gas cloud or whatever. I'll adapt, we'll figure it out. I do want to tour the universe, so prepare to do some traveling.

This is my way of saying whether or not they express it, men in most of the cultures I've encountered are acculturated to expect that women pick up after them/take care of them/put up with them. And being in an LTR with them, the odds are quite good that they will express it.

This would be why I like communication: so I can say "pick up your own damn socks, I've got s**t to do." And then, if they proceed to freak the f**k out, I know they aren't worth dating.

So far, you've responded to me pointing out that women do a lot of work in relationships, too, by attacking my relationship choices, my judgment, my ability to engage in discernment and other sorts of assumptions about me personally. You might wish to check your assumptions here and your sensitivity to the subject. I understand, from your responses, that you feel rejected.

It could, in fact, be that you are assuming rejection where none exists in this case (pointing out that women work in relationships too is not a rejection of the idea that men work; I explicitly said that relationships require work from everyone).

I can certainly tell you from my chair, I wouldn't date you--you seem to think that you should be sh***y if someone disagrees with you, even mildly.