The line between confidence and arrogance

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What's important is listening to the other person, being a receptive ear

Comfirming if she says something which you agree with.

Not getting upset if she says something which you don't agree with.

Talking about family always seems to be a great icebreaker.

Just basically showing yourself to be stable, not somebody who gets upset easily.

Nothing wrong with complimenting the lady on her fashion sense, either.

Just show yourself to be a person who is easy to talk to, and who listens.

On first meeting, don't sprout forth your political opinions.

If you seem like you want snap at her for every little thing, then I think the lady will be receptive to you.

If you seem to be defensive (even when it's justifiable to be defensive), you've lost the ball game in the first inning.

ADHD is part of neurodiversity, but I agree with you that there might actually be a stronger connection between ND courtship and ADHD than with ASD.

The reason you see little evidence of the duality is most likely because most people are forced into the NT courtship view, because basically, everybody thinks it's the only way, and it's the way that our culture has defined the dating concept on top of. You have to decide to act naturally and ignore the dating concept in order to even try to do it the ND way.

if we're still talking about the things you usually describe when you talk about "nd courtship/flirting/etc" (i'll have to be honest with you: i still don't know what's the scope of any of those words as you use them), then it still doesn't match my personal experience

i have no interest in learning how to "date". the very idea seems like a job interview type of thing to me, regardless if it's "nt" or "nd". i only have an interest in figuring out "how to find the right woman for me". which is a very complex question in itself. but if/once it's figured out, it's not a matter of approaching someone anymore, it's a matter of relationship. like i described in that earlier thread, the distinction between "friend" and "potential love interest" tends to be purely situational to me. and, from past experience, i'd say any woman i'll be interested in will probably agree with me on that

that's natural to me, and it doesn't conform to normal standards. and, the way i understand the things you say, it doesn't conform to your theories either. any concept of flirting to me only applies in the context of friendships, which changes everything (like i said: "not a matter of approach, but a matter of relationship"). i'm not saying your theories don't apply to anyone, it's just not clear to me how they apply or are supposed to apply to "nd people" in general. to me, the very idea of flirting with a stranger in order to get to know them and hopefully develop a relationship seems completely paradoxical

Oh crap! So the only way to get a girl is to not want to get a girl!

That's like the catch-22 man! I can't solve that kind of paradox!

I'll tell you a story. About ten years ago I went to this conference on autism and romance and the speaker, this French-Canadian lady said "Don't expect a girl to come knocking on your door, you have to go out and look for her".

It turned out she was right. If I do nothing, nothing will happen. If I make no effort to get a girl, then I certainly won't get one. I've experienced this firsthand. If I stay home, I won't meet any girls. If I go out but act 100% platonic towards girls, I'll meet girls but I won't get to date any of them.

But now it turns out that making an effort to find a girl is the very thing that disqualifies you from getting one? But I know if I don't make an effort, then I certainly won't find one.

What are girls thinking when they make these rules? They think they want a boyfriend who doesn't want a girlfriend but if he didn't want a girlfriend why would he ask her out?

This is all too complicated for me.

The desire for something prevents you from attaining it. It's a self-defeating prophesy. It's like if a Buddhist seeks enlightenment, so he purges himself of all desires, then he finds out he can't attain enlightenment because he still has a desire for enlightenment itself.

I didn't realize I'd have to solve koans to understand dating. It's like trying to figure out the Mirror of Erised. The only one who can get the stone out of it is someone who doesn't want to use it.Oh my gods! Not only do I have to get a girlfriend without ever desiring a girlfriend but the girls can all use their mystical neurotypical superpowers to work out what I'm thinking before I even know what I'm thinking! They can probably read my emotional state from my facial expression and body language more accurately than I can determine my own emotional state. Why did nature see fit to equip girls with telepathic powers beyond my reckoning?

I didn't mean that at all. You shouldn't be all passive. That wouldn't work for a guy.

What I meant: don't appear DESPERATE. Women hate men who appear desperate, unless their maternal instincts kick in, and they feel like they want to "fix" you in some fashion.

What is the line between impassivity and desperation?

The line is.....you talk to a lady like a friend, not like a potential lover--right away.

Most ladies respond well to this, I have found.

I guess there are some women who wouldn't mind it if a guy's that direct, and "gets to the point." But most women really don't like this level of directness.

They like a man to show that he thinks of her as a person, rather than as a "means to an end."

I grew up and live in Britain. I have to say, I've always found the idea of 'dating' to be a very American one, and not the way I saw most relationships around me form. People would either already know each other as part of a social group (friends of friends, work colleagues, some interest or activity), and start to feel drawn to each other and try spending time alone to see if there was anything there, or they'd pick each other up at a nightclub or house party, get off with or even sleep with each other, then see if a relationship grew out of that.

Which is to say, 'dating' isn't the only neurotypical way of going about things. Nor am I clear on what you think 'the ND way' is. The very idea of there being a singular 'ND way' of forming a relationship seems absurd.



That's nothing like what I said, as well you know, but I hope you (and maybe a few others) enjoyed your little flight of sarcastic fancy there.

Big nod of agreement/recognition from me on these points.



Quite. I think theorising from a reification of an abstraction of a statistical norm isn't going to be much help. Keep things as concrete and particular as possible. There is no 'woman' (or 'man') in relationships, there are only women and men.

Dating is illogical as heck, RetroGamer.

As Boo and I can tell you all over the Interwebz we see women say in forums and public blogs that they do NOT like being approached for conversation by stranger men interested in sex or dating (known as 'cold approaching') in the vast majority of situations.

The best situations to approach, are apparently parties, bars, nightclubs (which instantly drive away most aspies), bookstores, libraries, and coffee places; but there are even some young women who say they do not like being approached in bookstores or coffee places.

Statistically, most people meet their S.O. through mutual friends.

Unfortunately, not every aspie HAS mutual friends to meet, let alone ANY friends at all.

Statistically, only a small amount met their S.O. online.

These are U.S. stats, but I'm sure here isn't much different:

https://images.mic.com/a2uvnp24nafabnd9 ... bl3gm8.jpg

Line between impassive and desperate:

Desperate = approaching almost every woman you consider even slightly attractive at the same place, several times a day or week, to the point locals/frequent visitors would know you as 'that creep who tries to pick-up women all the time'.

Confident/active = Approaching maybe one woman at the same place every 2-4 weeks, and only the one's you consider the most physically attractive by your own standards (then again, we may have to discuss how to keep your standards realistic, as past posts have indicated you are unsure in this department).

Desperate = Dating any girl who shows interest in you.

Confident/Active = Dating only those you are interested in back.

Desperate = Feeling extremely excited/grateful at even the slightest returned attraction from any other female.

Confident/Active = Only feeling excited that things are working out well on, say, the third date. Everything before that doesn't mean much at all.

Either way, it's best to just forget about dating altogether.

If only we lived in a world with less artificial dating and more organic, natural connections with other people.

I like the "natural" connection better, too.

Many times, when I slept with women, I never had gone out on a "proper date" with them.

Sometimes, taking someone to a movie then dinner is fun, though. It's an ideal situation for one who doesn't have much to talk about. There's always the movie!

These characteristics are believed by NTs to be a sign of anxiety and lack of confidence, not neurology. True internal feelings don't matter. It's all about how they judge your social skills. Most highly social NTs believe all we need to do is feel good about ourselves, then we will magically become charismatic, witty, social butterflies. They believe the only barrier is so-called "confidence". At least that's the cliche pop-psychology BS. It is stupid.

It can if you have natural social skills and no neurological problems. I can guarantee people who stutter, lack eye contact, have neurological ticks, awkward posture, an awkward accent, etc... will be judged as less confident than those with no such problems. Hey, someone with a physical tongue deformity that causes their words to come out garbled will be judged if people don't understand the cause.

I like to stick out, so I can monologue about deep relationship issues before I know much about the girl's social status.

Confidence is so overrated anyway, this expectation that a man must always find ways to defeat his fears /weaknesses and never giving up improving on anything....

how about some humanity?