advice for NT, please

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I have been reading randomly around wrongplanet and I am already thankful for the insight you have given me.
Now that I'm a member I will be able to post and not just lurk.

Here's my issue:

I became involved with a guy who I'm pretty sure has AS. He didnt tell me using that word but he described several of the characteristics to me. ie "I have problems with interpersonal relationhips." I didn't think we were having any problems at the time, nor did I ever see him having problems with other people so I didn't know what he was talking about. I basically noted the statement but classified it as irrelvant. (i noticed his shyness but didn't see it as a problem.)

After becoming physical, he seemed to back off.

Then he went on a trip for a month and didn't tell me or contact me. (This is the nutshell version. There were other things...)

SO I felt totally duped. I read his actions as those of a man who was 'playing' me, even intentionally deceiving me or intending to hurt me.

I had been imagining the rest of my life with him and felt incredibly fooled and hurt. I also became angry and sent a series of emails that told him what I thought of such men. I think I managed to list all the typical problems that Aspies have in my angry grievances, which probably hurt him a lot. He did respond saying things that I now see were meant to explain his condition - but I could make no sense of his words at the time. They just seemed like poor excuses as well as disinterested and cold, which was not what I would expect from someone who actually cared about me.

I tried to let it go but my heart would not let me and after some soul searching and research, I came to understand about AS.

Now I want more than anything to try again with him. Some months have past.
He stopped going to the place where we used to meet. I've tried to explain my feelings via email. He responded very minimally but positively to some of them. Now, after I asked directly, he has agreed to talk with me. I don't know if it will really happen because he has not made a date yet. I am waiting......

I am surprised at the strength of this feeling I have for him and I can't let it go without trying everything possible.
I know I contributed to our miscommunications. I have been examining all the expectations I had that I did not express, all my insecurities, all the cultural expectaions that he probably wasn't aware of. I don't need to blame any more.

If we do meet, do you have any advice for what I should say? How I should be?

I would greatly appreciate any thoughts you have.

Wow. You're so far ahead of most people, I can't think of anything to complain about.
WrongPlanet is a good source of information. And hearing the same thing in different voices helps to make something clear. Have you read Donna Williams, "Nobody Nowhere," or other books written by autistic people? Having mixed feelings about intimacy is one of Donna's themes, and this seems to be an issue for your friend.

If he goes away for a month without contacting you at all, then it doesn't sound like he's the sort of person who would be good in a relationship.

It's great that you've tried to understand his AS and know where you've gone wrong too, but ultimately, you need to avoid the trap that a lot of NT girls seem to fall into here. It's not enough for only one person to learn about and care for another; it must be two way, and the actions of this guy don't really indicate a lot of caring or compassion.

I think you should probably not meet with him at all, or if you do just keep it brief and platonic.

I've read 2 books - one by an NT and one by an autistic person plus a lot of online articles.

I have mixed feelings about reading more. I feel I have a good idea about what went wrong and how AS played a role and I do want to know more and more BUT I also want to leave room in my brain to really get to know this guy for who he is. I am wary of thinking I know him by getting to know his condition.

Yes. Normally I would agree with you totally. I think my reactions were almost appropriate given cultural expectations, though I regret my less mature word choices.

However, with a different perspective I can see how I really hurt him - how many of the things I said were totally wrong and mean - and how he was actually trying to communicate with me.

One thing I left out in my first post is that once when he approached me with a smile, I turned my back on him. This was when I was still angry, before I understood about AS. So how can I blame him if he is afraid of me now? He probably doesn't know what to expect.

hello eck,
welcome to WP, glad you crossed over into membership You are absolutely correct about him not knowing 'what to expect'. There are thousands if not tens of thousands of posts on WP and especially in the Love and Dating section that will let you know exactly how an Aspie man is feeling about being harshly delt with. When you read them watch for indications of what the man wanted in the relationship and how they attempted to communicate that to the women in their lives. From that you might crack the code of what your friend might be communicating to you?

Merle

A part of me wants to say "leave it alone, you'll be happier with a 'normal' guy', but instead I'll just say "be careful". I fear it's going to be a frustrating experience for you, and I wish you the best however things turn out.

Bless you for caring enough to try to understand him, but I'm suspicious of the books so I'll suggest that you not take the authors' word for anything.

Also, you should take anything said here at Wrong Planet with a grain of salt: I think we're more emotional than we are given credit for, and the the way we see things can change depending on how our moods swing. Test everything you read or hear carefully. You'll want to keep a closer eye on his reactions to everything than perhaps you might with an "NT", and be careful that sometimes his expressions and reactions can be confusing (for example, his caution, concern, or sensitivity can look like disinterest.) "Aspies' are all individuals, too, so what might be true of one in a book might not be true of all, or even most, of them.

As for anything more specific, I can only suggest some things that seem to work with me, and I've never been diagnosed, so I'm not sure how useful these suggestions would be:

You might find it useful to explain things that you might feel need no explanation, as far as what you feel, what you mean, and what your motivation for taking a given action might be; do this in writing, if you can. I've found that it's much easier for me to understand it when NT women explain themselves in writing. And forget being subtle or dropping hints, at least at first - I'm afraid this doesn't work too well; for me, I can work with hints and subtlety a little if it's something written and I have time to think about it and I don't feel there's any chance that I'm pressed for an immediate response, but with verbal subtlety, I almost always miss it, and then after it's pointed out that I missed a hint, I start trying to read them into everything, resulting in something like paranoia and suspicion.

Beware of too much noise, crowds, and other stimulation during your early social interaction with him - I find it's distracting and exhausting, and I know I've seen more than a few people diagnosed with AS say the same thing. For the few dates I ever went on, the girls insisted on going to bars, dance clubs, and that sort of thing, with thick crowds, loud music, flashing lights, and too much happening at once, too quickly. I couldn't concentrate on what the poor girls were saying or doing, so I just tuned everything out, and I couldn't wait for the dates to end; and I'm sure the girls couldn't wait, either. On the other hand, a couple of dates where we did things like hiking together, flying home-made kites in a park, or dining at a quiet and uncrowded restaurant were very nice.

I know that I take a while to "open up" to someone; when I finally do, I tend to enjoy talking about myself, but I do find it hard to convince myself that anyone would react with anything but horror and disgust to learning more about me, and as a result opening up isn't easy for me. Ask him direct questions, and give him as much time as he needs to answer them... overnight or over a weekend would be ideal. He might be uncomfortable answering the question immediately, so you will almost certainly have to explain why you want to know, and, unfortunately, you may find you'll have to demonstrate that you can be trusted with the answers.

I tend to understand simple contracts instantly without having to concentrate on them, and I understand them far better and more easily than I can understand other forms of communication, and maybe the same is generally true of people with AS. "I am offering X, because I want Y in return": as long as the terms seem to balance and I like what I'm being offered, I'm usually happy to go out of my way.

I'm afraid that, at least in my case, I can fake social interaction for only so long before I have to back off and "recharge", with the result being that I might seem warm and friendly for a while, and then suddenly change to seem cold, secretive, and unfriendly for a while, before either coming back and acting like nothing happened, or acting incredibly guilty and apologetic but offering no explanation. This would probably be the hardest thing for any normal person trying to get close to me to handle. It seems that a normal reaction is to wonder what you did wrong, when in reality you didn't cause it, you could not have stopped it from happening, and the most logical things you could have done to try stopping it would have only made it worse.

If you are willing to meet him half-way, you've got an incredibly difficult task ahead of you in doing your part to make the relationship work, and it may be so difficult that it would exhaust you before you get anything out of it. If he is unwilling or unable to meet you half-way, the job will be twice as difficult for you, and I can't imagine that ever being a rewarding and positive experience for you.

If you could let me know how things work out and what you find works well for you and what doesn't, I would be interested to hear about it.

I wish the best of luck to you!

Be forwarned:
Getting philosophical...
still trying to work out what went wrong.

Cultural norms prescribe lots of shortcuts that can help us infer meaning and predict behavior. They vary a little from place to place but some rules for meaningful communication are supposedly hardwired into our brains, like grammar.
(There is evidence that the meanings of facial expressions are actually universal even if the ability to read them varies. Frown means sad etc.)

These biological and learned social practices/tools can be useful just like universal assumptions in math are useful - they put us on the same page so we can talk to each other. It's easier to not reinvent the wheel if you don't have to. Maybe that's why we have a problem with diversity. It takes more work.

I think that my part-time use of culturally prescribed norms when communicating with my guy was disasterous and painful for both of us.

For example: I really don't care that much if he ever meets my friends and family but since this is normal procedure in a serious relationship and he showed no desire to meet them, I came to the conclusion that he did not want to invest in the relationship.

What I really care about is whether or not he wants to spend time with me and for how long under what circumstances. Did I ask him about his intentions? No. I gathered up evidence from his behavior and plugged it into my common knowledge about "how guys act." He didn't fare well and I blew up at him over things that I don't necessarily even care about. There so many unwritten rules about gender alone that I despise but follow by default.

No wonder I confused him. I am following some rules that I don't even agree with and not others while forming expectations that I didn't express and never stopping to check if he was following me. He never told me what he wanted out of the relationship but neither did I ask or say what I want.

What I'm trying to get at is that cultural norms are useful as short cuts to inferring meaning WHEN BOTH PARTIES CAN READ AND AGREE TO FOLLOW THEM. If not, they can be just as detrimental to real communication as the "great wall of aspie silence."

Poetry has permission to disregard rules of grammar but can be infinitely more direct and beautiful than common language.
Yes. It takes a sh**load more time to write it but I'm willing to try.

My guy was poetry incarnate. So I will endure the silence and the slim chances and break my heart on him - at least a little longer.

Thanks for reading if you got through all that. It is helpful to work through the thoughts.

TOo much holiday time on my hands...

Honesty,

I wish there were more people like you in this world. I recently just broke up with my girlfriend like about 2 months ago. It has been depressing for me because, I really did like her, but unfortunately, she stated that I didn't show it . I did tell her that I had AS but she only looked at info briefly and she did know that thing would be different, maybe not as she would of liked though. It was my first relationship so it was kinda new to me because as you might infer, I'm not outgoing and shy.

I was hesitant with some things, like she said that you didn't really want to hold my hand as much. I believe that I became to causal with her though. When I became in that state it did seem to show that I didn't love her. I also became hesitant to call her although we IM'd everyday. When we did have some tension, I did everything I could to relieve it. She also believed that, I did this just because I wanted a GF, before we went out this was true I must admit (I was highly influenced by my peers and friends). But after we went out, that started to change and I really did fall in love with her. If she would of done more research and would of been more devoted to make it work, and me make some changes I would have worked.

For you I would talk to him when you meet you meet up with him and ask him do you love me and such. People with AS do have a hard time showing affection to one another.
If you really want to date him, don't be surprised if he doesn't show affection to you as much as a male NT would. IDK if this is true in all ppl with AS but In my mind, I really did love my GF and, it might be the same with ur person as well. Most importantly, be understanding of him and his condition, just don't jump the gun if the did something wrong, give him chances.

I really do wish there were more people like you!

I wish you the best of luck with this and I hope it works out ! !

PS sry for boring you with my life story lol :/

AHAA,

Thank you for sharing your story, which is not boring.

You got far enough to be in a relationship and feel love. Not everyone actually feels that - though you probably wish you didn't right now. You are brave for making yourself vulnerable. It's pretty rare to have your 1st relationship work. You'll get better at them.

I can see how it's hard to convince someone that you can't communicate feelings "normally" when it appears you can articulate fine details regarding other matters.

Maybe we can develop a technique to overcome this?

I wonder if I would have understood better if he said "It is impossible for me to read what you are feeling. You need to say exactly what you mean if you want me to understand you, and I would like to."

Of course, I probably would have found it a little strange...

wow,it's late.