Do you think he makes an interesting point?

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At luncthime yesterday i was in starbucks and i overheard a very interesteing conversation between 2 guys.

"Slavery, institutionalized rape , dowry, and other traditions are all gone, why not the tradition of men asking women out also?"


Do you think he makes a good point or not?

no, because those things are in no way equivalent
also it implies there is no ingrained sexism against women in modern (assuming western) society which is a false premise

Interesting, yes. Accurate, no. Asking someone out (or rather, the desire to get to know someone better) is natural. Slavery and other traditions like it are institutionalized. Besides, there is more slavery today than at any point in human history. Asking someone out (whether male or female) is not done for the sake of preserving an institution.

There's sexism against men as well, but you never see men complaiming about male underwear models having less than half of the ideal body fat levels, why they can't date someone who owns a house and a car while they're still in college or why no women can buy them a drink.

Of course, the burden of having to take the active role is not as bad as being a slave, though.

I understand what your saying.

And yes he has a point, but those changes of traditional thought are still a long ways off, perhaps anther 50-100 years.

Until then, females will still be the rejectors or acceptors, while men have to ask just to see if the females find them acceptable or interesting enough not to be rejected.

so for now, the ball is still in the womans court when it comes to romance.
they do not see it that way, because they can not see things from a mans point of view.
but give it time.

Not only are the times slowly changing, but genetic changes are going to create great upheavals in the balance of things as they are between the sex's. eventually the ball will no longer be in the females court. the pendulum swings. welcome to the age of Aquarius.

Yes. This is the best point I've heard in a while. Last time I heard a point that good, it was me saying the exact same thing. For those saying slavery is just a cultural thing, it's not. There are biological divisions of power in a group. Culture merely nuances that - instead of simply being someone's property, you work an uncomfortable job so you can pay your mortgage and don't get thrown out of your house and arrested. A lot of people - mainly men - don't have much choice. Either they do work no-one really wants to do, die years younger and risk injury or death, or they're evicted and prosecuted by the middle man between them and their owners.

It makes an insane lot of sense, and I've always been a proponent of an all-in-or-all-out system. Either you have male and female restrictions and role patterns, or you don't. Either men are not expected to be more courteous to women than they are to other men and women have equal rights in employment and politics, or men are expected to be more courteous to women but women have to hand in their benefits in order to balance men's lack of benefits. The current system means men have the responsibilities from a cultural perspective, and women have mostly rights, sometimes even at men's expense.

Slavery, rape and such are oppressive traditions, who asks who out is one made of freedom and choice. Not the same thing.
There are women that ask men out (though not as vast in numbers). This to me just sounds like 2 yuppies trying to sound smart in a coffee bar, not knowing the full scope of the conversation they are having.

Man all dem dere intellectual conversations at Starbucks.

Thats all good and well but unfourtantly in 50-100 years time most of us posting here will be dead

long term systemic oppression of women =/= it's hard for me to convince a woman to touch my boner

and I see men complain about "misandry" all the damn time, it happens a lot here.

I think people should just do what they want to do, without reference to gender. And no one should expect or demand other individuals to behave either way.

On that note, I've also never watched wrestling with a bunch of dudes, then one of them sees the abs on John Cena and runs to the bathroom to throw up his pizza.

Getting a body like him (regardless of your testosterone levels) is a lot harder than it is for a woman to get a body like Katy Perry or Adriana Lima.

Edit: A lot of guys do steroids to look like John Cena, though...

There is a professional document I once received about psychological ways of damaging someone. Many of the methods depended on ridiculing the other party, to make them feel like they're not taken seriously, and to make them doubt themselves. If you can make them look insane for disagreeing with you, you've won. However, I'm not falling for this. Your way of representing this is clearly a female one; appeal to emotion, ridicule, lacking in logic. Instead of responding to my point, which still stands strongly, you attempt to ridicule individuals to prevent your ideas from being blown out of the water.

Now, what I'm saying is that both slavery and male role patterns have followed the same three layers - the biological layer, which is the groundwork for everything else and determines the alpha males and most desired females for a large part, the cultural layer, which nuances the biological layer a bit, but reinforces certain role patterns and hierarchic patterns, and the individual layer, which might fluctuate a bit, but generally serves to semi-lucidly deny the existence of the other two layers. You can't really summarise that in the way you did, and I consider that a personal insult.

Now, I'm sorry for saying this, but it seems really appropriate to what's being discussed here: man up and respond to what I'm saying or admit defeat.



Do you have any idea what that does to your nether regions?
(Click here to see. Not safe for work, because you'd have to explain to your employer why you're looking at bodybuilders in underwear. Thankfully, though, his nether regions are covered safely)

the comparison comes from one group dominating another. While it is meant to be far strung and shocking it is a legit one.

As far as steroids, they're less dangerous than the general public thinks. I mean, I'm probably not gonna be taking any soon, but pretty much every pro athlete is on some kind of "enhancement." Pro bodybuilders are NUTS, though, and what they take for a cycle is much more than what a "normal" person would take just to improve athletic performance/recovery. Like Ronnie Coleman for example, he takes so much steroids he needs liver medication, blood pressure pills, and cholesterol medicine. Today pro bodybuilders are taking steroid amounts that would have been considered lethal in the 1980s. It seems pretty asinine to me, but whatever floats their boats, if they wanna be 300lb people that look like clouds when they walk around, hey, they're free to do that.