An article on "bullycide"

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which would be fair enough, except for the fact that depression blinds people to the worthwhile things in life. Take, for example, the kids who kill themselves due to bullying (which, though my beliefs are applicable to other situations, is at the core of this discussion). What about graduation. What about the fact that in a few years they will be out of that situation? Is that not something to live for? But, because of their depression, they become unable to see that far ahead. Just because they perceive their position to be inescapable does not mean that it is. Why should they have to die because others are unwilling to show them the error in their thinking?



So what is it you'd have us do? Let them die rather than encourage them to deal? My best guess is that you think the answer is to help remove the external stresses that are causing their depression in the first place. But what about those whose depression is based on a chemical imbalance? Those who are killing themselves despite the fact that there are no external unsolvable problems in their lives. Should we just let them die because showing them there are ways to get better offends you? Suicide is far more often perceived as a last resort than it actually is.

The cases you are talking about are, when it comes to suicide, absolutely the exception rather than the rule. Why should we let many die to spare the feelings of a few who, according to you, can't be helped anyway.

People don't seek help, people don't seek medical treatment, unless they believe that they can get better. Which is why I want to teach people that they can get better before they get depressed in the first place.



And emotions and thinking are inextricably linked. One's emotions cause one to think there are no solutions.

Hmm I lived past my high school years and figured it would help graduating and going on to college. Turns out isolation can be just as bad if not worse then bullying so I spent every night drinking vodka because I could not deal with how lonely and isolated I felt. So sure it nice to hope all you have to do is graduate and get out of that situation and all your problems are solved....but what then when things just stay just as bad or get worse? I mean I really do understand your point and sometimes people do just need be made aware there is hope but when it proves to be false its hard not to regress back into the suicidal mindset.

Also the alternative to letting one die should not be expect them to jump through hoops, get over it, ect if they don't have the ability to do so is not probably going to help.......someone has to see that there is support and that there are ways of getting past things, and that does not always prove possible.

That may or may not be directed at me, but I do not believe that depression is caused by flawed thinking. I believe that depression causes flawed thinking. Huge difference. And I believe that that flawed thinking is one of the main contributors to a person's desire to die.

Depression cannot be fixed without the person realizing there are errors in their thinking or perception. If we assume that there are no perceptual errors, then we must conclude that suicide is the right decision for every person who desires it. Which I do not think any of us would agree with.

I think it was directed at what I said about medical treatment not being accessible....but yes depression does contribute to flawed thinking, however when things in life seem to prove that very flawed thinking correct it makes it that much harder to see it as flawed thinking. I mean ideally if someone is depressed its flawed thinking they need to overcome......but when the situation makes the flawed thinking correct that might not help so much.

Yes, exactly, people have to see there are ways of getting past things before they will even try. That is what I've been saying all along. That we need to teach people before they get depressed in the first place that there are ways of coping.

Making medical treatment for depression more accessible is a great idea, and one that actually can be accomplished. But people aren't going to seek it unless they believe that they can get better.

I didn't say that fixing one problem would fix all of them. Just that, almost always, they can be fixed. They may have to be taken one at a time, and it may take many years, but I'll never be convinced that it isn't worth the work.

But just as, if not more, often, the flawed thinking contributes to the problem. Take this very message board for example. There are many people here who are depressed due to a lack of friends. They have had bad experiences trying to socialize, so they assume that everyone in the world is going to dislike them, so they avoid socializing, so they never end up developing the skills that would help them become more socially capable, stop giving themselves chances to develop friendships, and then take their continued lack of friends as proof that they were right all along. And before anyone gets offended at that, it is definitely not directed at anyone in particular, and I myself am as guilty of it as anyone.

That might actually be a good idea, also it might address things earlier...there are probably people who would still end up with depression but maybe not as bad. I mean one problem I think I had was I was very depressed for a long time since I was a child part of why I did not know what depression was, was due to lack of education. So I thought I deserved to feel the way I felt or something I had no clue there was anything to actually explain it until I attempted suicide and the counselor I went to told me that. I don't know what my parents were thinking I mean in their defense they where trying but I don't think they knew a lot about mental illness or anything at the time either.

But yeah other then trying to maybe reduce bullying schools should maybe focus on educating kids about depression and maybe even anxiety and other things so maybe they can identify if they are struggling with something like that which needs addressing, but as if our education system would ever be that competent.

It would be easier for people to seek treatment if they didn't have to risk spending a fortune and not accomplishing much of anything when they don't have health insurance. There's nothing more demoralizing than having to worry about financial survival when you really need to take care of the depression before you can move on. Society pays lip service and spews platitudes indicating that people can seek help, but the reality of the system is pretty abysmal.

That's true.....and certainly does not help matters.

Yes. I see stigma as a huge issue. A lot of people don't even attempt to get help because they don't even want to admit that they are depressed. Depression is seen as weakness and lack of character rather than an illness by the person who is depressed. Society reinforces this idea by expecting people to buck it up and pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Then there's the issue that everyone thinks they know what depression is because hey, everyone's been depressed at some point in their life. You know, everyone's had to deal with breaking up with their high school sweat heart but they got over it. Then people with a really serious case that could lead to suicide are overlooked and their plight is trivialized.

Well it would have to be presented in a non-stigmatizing way.

I think society needs to actively try and reverse the stigma because it's the nature of depression for the depressed person to stigmatize themselves. I don't accept that the depressed person is weak. I think they really do have a heavier burden to deal with than the person who isn't depressed. Ordinary everyday activities can take ten times as much effort when you're severely depressed. I know this personally as I have a lot of ups and downs and I can easily see how when I'm in a down state just getting through the day can be like being forced to carry a 100lb pack up a hill while everyone else is striding past as if they were virtually weightless. It's not about justifying a depressed person's desire to give up completely. I just think more credit should be given even for the smallest things and sometimes people really do need extra support, and it needs to be more than just empty platitudes.

Because eventual (possible) escapes in the future are not in any way escapes for *now*, when the individual can bear it no longer?


Let people make their own decisions, as opposed to opining about what is and is not a "good enough" reason to end their lives.

wut
I cited no specific cases, except to say that people who commit suicide are in extraordinary pain. I don't particularly view people who would commit suicide as being in need of "help", any more than any other person who makes any other decision.

It's very rare that suicide is, in fact, the only possible escape from a situation. In most cases there are other options, the only problem is that the person's depression prevents them from seeing those. If they could more clearly see those other options, I think the majority would find that they can, in fact, bear it a while longer. Since the person is not able to see those other options for themselves, then it becomes the responsibility of those around them to help them see them. Since not everyone has people who care enough, or in many cases they have people who care but do not know how to help, and since someone who is already depressed will have immense trouble spontaneously developing coping skills, it is then useful to teach coping skills, to teach them how to find other options, before the person becomes depressed in the first place.



Can't stop people from making their own decisions. If someone wants to take their own life, we can't stop them. The only thing we can do, or at least the thing I am advocating we do, is ensure they are making an informed decision.

It is an unfortunate symptom of depression that the person becomes unable to interpret certain situations in anything but a negative manner. For instance, a person's family may care very deeply about the person but not be informed enough to recognize clinical depression for what it is. Or, they may know all about it, but not know how to help. The depressed person, however, is likely to interpret those situations as their family not caring.

I believe society as a whole, and more specifically the people around the depressed person need to help correct these false interpretations of events and situations. I believe it is more helpful to correct these interpretations before they actually occur, and that one way of doing that is by not being so blindly uncritical of the decisions of those who have already committed suicide.



You did not just say that suicidal people are in extraordinary pain. You also said that only people who do not have other options kill themselves, which is just not the case in the majority of suicides. There is an enormous difference between not having other options and not seeing other options.

No, you did not cite specific cases. But you are focused on situations which are not applicable for most suicides. Simple fact is that the majority of people who kill themselves do have other options, and do have people who care about them even if those people are clueless about the depression and how to help.

But if you believe that suicidal people do not need help, then you are a far colder person than I am used to dealing with (and that's saying a lot), and I don't expect you to understand why I or most people would want them to live in the first place.


And in reference to something you said earlier. Yes, the words "life is precious" sound like a bumper sticker. Yes, the words sound trite. But the belief itself is anything but. For me, it has literally meant the difference between life and death. You can think that's cheesy and unhelpful if you want, but please stop taking everything I say as something I think should be said to someone who is already suicidal. Most of it is stuff I think should be taught to people before they become depressed in the first place (god, I think I've had to say that at least once on every page of this thread so far), the rest is me explaining why I believe the things I do. If you're looking for helpful things to say to or do for a suicidal person, the internet is packed with that. If you disagree with what I'm saying, that's fine. But please disagree with the things I'm actually saying.

I think we've gotten to the point here of debating in circles.

And really, I don't see what there is to be offended over.

mds obviously does respect suicidal individuals. Not only has he said so, he has been there himself. He's not advocating condemning anyone or forcing behavior. He wants a change in dialogue, and that's fine. Free speech and all that.


ValentineWiggin obviously values personal choice highly. Nothing wrong with that. I'm assuming that saying suicidal folk don't want help is a misunderstanding and will give the benefit of the doubt to that effect.

Perhaps it should be left at that?