An article on "bullycide"
ValentineWiggin
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18 Jan 2012, 6:03 pm
mds_02 wrote:
"We" aren't. You're so focused on the very small minority who really can't get better that you are ignoring the majority who are dying despite the fact that they could.
I've never once said people "can't get better"!
I've said endlessly repeating that wanting to exit a miserable life is not an illness in the first place,
and you and I are not the deciders of what is and is not the "right" amount of misery which compels an individual to rationally choose such.
You: Suicide is stupid because situations can improve/people are stronger than they give themselves credit for/kum-ba-yah.
Me: How naive, presumptuous, and judgmental of you.
Ad nauseum.
That's what this conversation is.
_________________
"Such is the Frailty
of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."
18 Jan 2012, 7:55 pm
I wasn't even talking about talking a person out of suicide. What I'm saying is the "it gets better" line of reasoning doesn't always work, even for people who aren't yet suicidal. Some people like to see concrete evidence rather than vague platitudes. How can things get better? What can be done? Not everyone is wired for blind faith in some vague and indefinite "better" future.
18 Jan 2012, 8:14 pm
One (I think potentially very effective) way of showing specific examples of how things can get better is to talk openly about the suicides of others. To talk about things they could have done instead. But, in order to do that, we have to be willing to be critical of the decisions of those who have already died.
I'm talking in generalities right now because we are talking about a large group; suicidal people as a whole. But, if people weren't so unwilling to talk more openly about specific cases (because when they do, they are labelled as unfeeling monsters), we'd be able to get into more specific advice, with concrete examples.
And now we've argued all the way back to what I was saying on the first page. So, here's a short summary of my thoughts on the subject in case someone wants to argue against them;
I believe we should be willing to criticize the decisions of those who've committed suicide.
I believe it is useful to criticize them because, by doing so, we can show others, before they are in that situation, specific ways of dealing with it.
I believe it is acceptable to criticize them because, the majority of the time, suicide was not the only option.
I believe that the reason they saw it as the only option is because poor decision making due to errors in perception (specifically, interpreting positive or neutral events in a negative fashion) is a hallmark of depression.
And now, for the sake of my own sanity, I am backing out of this thread.
_________________
If life's not beautiful without the pain,
well I'd just rather never ever even see beauty again.
Well as life gets longer, awful feels softer.
And it feels pretty soft to me.
Modest Mouse - The View
ValentineWiggin
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18 Jan 2012, 10:32 pm
mds_02 wrote:
I believe we should be willing to criticize the decisions of those who've committed suicide.
I believe it is useful to criticize them because, by doing so, we can show others, before they are in that situation, specific ways of dealing with it.
I believe it is acceptable to criticize them because, the majority of the time, suicide was not the only option.
I believe that the reason they saw it as the only option is because poor decision making due to errors in perception (specifically, interpreting positive or neutral events in a negative fashion) is a hallmark of depression.
I believe it is useful to criticize them because, by doing so, we can show others, before they are in that situation, specific ways of dealing with it.
I believe it is acceptable to criticize them because, the majority of the time, suicide was not the only option.
I believe that the reason they saw it as the only option is because poor decision making due to errors in perception (specifically, interpreting positive or neutral events in a negative fashion) is a hallmark of depression.
I'd like to know what situation is wretched enough that you would consider escape from it via suicide anything other than "poor decision making", and upon what the repetitive "majority of the time" claims are based.
It boggles my mind how someone can say something like that and pretend it's not offensive.
_________________
"Such is the Frailty
of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."
18 Jan 2012, 11:23 pm
ValentineWiggin wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
I believe we should be willing to criticize the decisions of those who've committed suicide.
I believe it is useful to criticize them because, by doing so, we can show others, before they are in that situation, specific ways of dealing with it.
I believe it is acceptable to criticize them because, the majority of the time, suicide was not the only option.
I believe that the reason they saw it as the only option is because poor decision making due to errors in perception (specifically, interpreting positive or neutral events in a negative fashion) is a hallmark of depression.
I believe it is useful to criticize them because, by doing so, we can show others, before they are in that situation, specific ways of dealing with it.
I believe it is acceptable to criticize them because, the majority of the time, suicide was not the only option.
I believe that the reason they saw it as the only option is because poor decision making due to errors in perception (specifically, interpreting positive or neutral events in a negative fashion) is a hallmark of depression.
I'd like to know what situation is wretched enough that you would consider escape from it via suicide anything other than "poor decision making", and upon what the repetitive "majority of the time" claims are based.
It boggles my mind how someone can say something like that and pretend it's not offensive.
What's offensive is the self-centered focus on stopping people from taking their life rather than doing anything constructive to relieve the miserable condition they are in.
19 Jan 2012, 5:01 am
Okay, I know I said I was backing out of the thread, but this time I was asked new questions that I find very valid.
ValentineWiggin wrote:
I'd like to know what situation is wretched enough that you would consider escape from it via suicide anything other than "poor decision making", and upon what the repetitive "majority of the time" claims are based.
It boggles my mind how someone can say something like that and pretend it's not offensive.
It boggles my mind how someone can say something like that and pretend it's not offensive.
my belief that there are other options the majority of the time is based on the fact that only 10% of people who attempt suicide go on to complete it in the future. If they themselves did not later find that there were other solutions to their problems, I believe that number would be far higher.
That statistic is mentioned here. though I've seen it plenty of other places as well. Look in the section marked Outlook (Prognosis)
The reason I say that most people do, in fact, have people who care about them is because it is estimated that people who commit suicide leave behind an average of 6 "survivors" (people who are affected by, and grieve, their loss).
You can find that statistic mentioned here, though, again, I have seen it other places.
Whether I feel it was reasonable or not is based less on the severity of the situation, and more on the person's ability to escape it through other means. Since only 10% of people who attempt suicide actually go on to complete it in the future, it must be assumed that 90% eventually found another way out. I also believe that it is likely that at least some of those 10% would have found another solution as well, had they lived long enough. So, in at least (and possibly more than) 90% of suicide attempts, there were other means of dealing with the situation that the person just couldn't see at the time.
Also, offensive does not necessarily mean untrue. I may be offended if someone tells me my clothes or breath smell bad but, as a smoker, it's probably true. In the same way, a person may be offended if told that they are interpreting certain situations incorrectly but, if they are depressed, it's probably true.
marshall, it's hard to alleviate someone's misery if they are already dead. Issues serious enough to make a person consider suicide are going to take time to fix, and the person may kill themselves in the meantime. If a person is suicidal, it is best to stop that first (or better yet, try to stop them from becoming suicidal in the first place) or else there may not be a chance to fix the root causes.
_________________
If life's not beautiful without the pain,
well I'd just rather never ever even see beauty again.
Well as life gets longer, awful feels softer.
And it feels pretty soft to me.
Modest Mouse - The View
Sweetleaf
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19 Jan 2012, 1:23 pm
mds_02 wrote:
Okay, I know I said I was backing out of the thread, but this time I was asked new questions that I find very valid.
my belief that there are other options the majority of the time is based on the fact that only 10% of people who attempt suicide go on to complete it in the future. If they themselves did not later find that there were other solutions to their problems, I believe that number would be far higher.
That statistic is mentioned here. though I've seen it plenty of other places as well. Look in the section marked Outlook (Prognosis)
The reason I say that most people do, in fact, have people who care about them is because it is estimated that people who commit suicide leave behind an average of 6 "survivors" (people who are affected by, and grieve, their loss).
You can find that statistic mentioned here, though, again, I have seen it other places.
Whether I feel it was reasonable or not is based less on the severity of the situation, and more on the person's ability to escape it through other means. Since only 10% of people who attempt suicide actually go on to complete it in the future, it must be assumed that 90% eventually found another way out. I also believe that it is likely that at least some of those 10% would have found another solution as well, had they lived long enough. So, in at least (and possibly more than) 90% of suicide attempts, there were other means of dealing with the situation that the person just couldn't see at the time.
Also, offensive does not necessarily mean untrue. I may be offended if someone tells me my clothes or breath smell bad but, as a smoker, it's probably true. In the same way, a person may be offended if told that they are interpreting certain situations incorrectly but, if they are depressed, it's probably true.
marshall, it's hard to alleviate someone's misery if they are already dead. Issues serious enough to make a person consider suicide are going to take time to fix, and the person may kill themselves in the meantime. If a person is suicidal, it is best to stop that first (or better yet, try to stop them from becoming suicidal in the first place) or else there may not be a chance to fix the root causes.
ValentineWiggin wrote:
I'd like to know what situation is wretched enough that you would consider escape from it via suicide anything other than "poor decision making", and upon what the repetitive "majority of the time" claims are based.
It boggles my mind how someone can say something like that and pretend it's not offensive.
It boggles my mind how someone can say something like that and pretend it's not offensive.
my belief that there are other options the majority of the time is based on the fact that only 10% of people who attempt suicide go on to complete it in the future. If they themselves did not later find that there were other solutions to their problems, I believe that number would be far higher.
That statistic is mentioned here. though I've seen it plenty of other places as well. Look in the section marked Outlook (Prognosis)
The reason I say that most people do, in fact, have people who care about them is because it is estimated that people who commit suicide leave behind an average of 6 "survivors" (people who are affected by, and grieve, their loss).
You can find that statistic mentioned here, though, again, I have seen it other places.
Whether I feel it was reasonable or not is based less on the severity of the situation, and more on the person's ability to escape it through other means. Since only 10% of people who attempt suicide actually go on to complete it in the future, it must be assumed that 90% eventually found another way out. I also believe that it is likely that at least some of those 10% would have found another solution as well, had they lived long enough. So, in at least (and possibly more than) 90% of suicide attempts, there were other means of dealing with the situation that the person just couldn't see at the time.
Also, offensive does not necessarily mean untrue. I may be offended if someone tells me my clothes or breath smell bad but, as a smoker, it's probably true. In the same way, a person may be offended if told that they are interpreting certain situations incorrectly but, if they are depressed, it's probably true.
marshall, it's hard to alleviate someone's misery if they are already dead. Issues serious enough to make a person consider suicide are going to take time to fix, and the person may kill themselves in the meantime. If a person is suicidal, it is best to stop that first (or better yet, try to stop them from becoming suicidal in the first place) or else there may not be a chance to fix the root causes.
I hate to be dark and melencholy, but even if one does have people who care.......what if having people who care does not reduce any of the pain the individual is in? just have to throw that out there you don't have to respond just wanted to see what anyone thought about that instance.
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20 Jan 2012, 4:34 pm
mds_02 wrote:
marshall, it's hard to alleviate someone's misery if they are already dead. Issues serious enough to make a person consider suicide are going to take time to fix, and the person may kill themselves in the meantime. If a person is suicidal, it is best to stop that first (or better yet, try to stop them from becoming suicidal in the first place) or else there may not be a chance to fix the root causes.
If someone's dead they probably aren't experiencing anything, unless you believe something otherwise.
I think if a person is so overwhelmed with their emotional state that they're considering suicide what they really need is external support. If people think others are only concerned with stopping them from killing yourself while not doing enough to relieve the overwhelming situation they're in, they're more likely to keep their suicidal desires secret. That's the danger I see. I mean, why call a suicide hotline if there's nothing they can do to help you other than try to talk you out of suicide?
20 Jan 2012, 8:40 pm
marshall wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
marshall, it's hard to alleviate someone's misery if they are already dead. Issues serious enough to make a person consider suicide are going to take time to fix, and the person may kill themselves in the meantime. If a person is suicidal, it is best to stop that first (or better yet, try to stop them from becoming suicidal in the first place) or else there may not be a chance to fix the root causes.
If someone's dead they probably aren't experiencing anything, unless you believe something otherwise.
I think if a person is so overwhelmed with their emotional state that they're considering suicide what they really need is external support. If people think others are only concerned with stopping them from killing yourself while not doing enough to relieve the overwhelming situation they're in, they're more likely to keep their suicidal desires secret. That's the danger I see. I mean, why call a suicide hotline if there's nothing they can do to help you other than try to talk you out of suicide?
But, if a person does not believe in the possibility that thinngs can get better, they may not have the patience to go through the, often very long, process of making them better. I'm not saying that suicidal people shouldn't get external support. I'm saying that even with external support it will likely take some time before they start feeling better, and people need to do what they can to keep the person from dying in the meantime.
Having coping skills before they get depressed, and the belief that their life can improve in the first place, may buy them enough time for those improvements to occur.
_________________
If life's not beautiful without the pain,
well I'd just rather never ever even see beauty again.
Well as life gets longer, awful feels softer.
And it feels pretty soft to me.
Modest Mouse - The View
20 Jan 2012, 10:04 pm
mds_02 wrote:
marshall wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
marshall, it's hard to alleviate someone's misery if they are already dead. Issues serious enough to make a person consider suicide are going to take time to fix, and the person may kill themselves in the meantime. If a person is suicidal, it is best to stop that first (or better yet, try to stop them from becoming suicidal in the first place) or else there may not be a chance to fix the root causes.
If someone's dead they probably aren't experiencing anything, unless you believe something otherwise.
I think if a person is so overwhelmed with their emotional state that they're considering suicide what they really need is external support. If people think others are only concerned with stopping them from killing yourself while not doing enough to relieve the overwhelming situation they're in, they're more likely to keep their suicidal desires secret. That's the danger I see. I mean, why call a suicide hotline if there's nothing they can do to help you other than try to talk you out of suicide?
But, if a person does not believe in the possibility that thinngs can get better, they may not have the patience to go through the, often very long, process of making them better. I'm not saying that suicidal people shouldn't get external support. I'm saying that even with external support it will likely take some time before they start feeling better, and people need to do what they can to keep the person from dying in the meantime.
Maybe it's not that they're irrationally assuming it's impossible for things to get better. Maybe they're just so exhausted that a mere "possibility" that things can get better is no longer enough. If I'm in excruciating mental torment, I need to know with certainty that it will get better, and soon. There's a limit to how far one can get mentally on mere exhaust fumes of hope.
Quote:
Having coping skills before they get depressed, and the belief that their life can improve in the first place, may buy them enough time for those improvements to occur.
If you have such great coping skills then maybe you aren't that depressed in the first place (hypothetical "you", I'm not talking about you personally). Having a personal moral stance against suicide due to the pain it could cause to loved ones is great (I have one myself), but I don't consider that a coping skill.
21 Jan 2012, 12:56 am
Adults and younger people are both affected by it. There is less information available about adults. Apparently a person has to have 3 elements- hopelessness, desensitization to pain and a feeling of burdensomeness. Also, demoralization and entrapment play a role. Very sad... Thankfully this is a good forum where people seem to help each other when they feel pain.
