An article on "bullycide"

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14 Jan 2012, 9:13 pm

Some people are more likely to be victimized. The only people for whom it is impossible to get past it are those who are already dead.

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ValentineWiggin
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14 Jan 2012, 9:39 pm

Glad to see starry-eyed naivete isn't dead.

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14 Jan 2012, 11:42 pm

mds_02 wrote:

marshall wrote:

mds_02 wrote:

marshall wrote:

Hey, you're the one mentioning how people think suicide is "stupid". People who think it's "stupid" are in fact clueless and insulting. Sorry, deal with it.

Nice strawman BTW.

Smart people do stupid things every day. I stand by the statement that suicide is a stupid thing to do. And if you honestly believe that attempting to influence the emotions of others is not an extremely common motivation for suicide, then it is you who are clueless.

That is a ridiculous and presumptive generalization. Would suicide be "stupid" in a case where someone is being physically tortured? What about someone forced to live the rest of their life in severe and debilitating pain? Also, who says depression is "all in someone's head"? I know from first hand experience that a severe chemical imbalance in the brain can amount to nothing less than mental torture. It's not necessarily irrational for someone to want to escape that.

To tell the truth, I think this kind of moralizing is precisely what causes people to commit suicide rather than demand the help and support they desperately need to continue on surviving in life. If someone is in chronic pain at least others know what they're going through. The chronically depressed person may feel totally isolated and misunderstood. When people moralize against a depressed person and call them stupid for feeling suicidal, they are pushing them into a dangerous state of isolation.

Quote:

And just being depressed does not remove a person's responsibilities toward their loved ones. Just because hearing that it would upset (and that's not really the right word for it, I'd say devastate hits closer to the mark) them might not make the person feel better, does not make it untrue and does not make it a very good reason to not go through with it.

And if you can't look at it objectively, then maybe an objective discussion (or at least the attempt at one) isn't the best idea for you.

I'm afraid you're the one who's not being objective. I'm the realist here. Everyone has a breaking point. Most people will jump to their death out of a burning building if they feel they're going to suffocate from smoke inhalation. You can't claim that your opinion isn't being influenced by your emotions given everything you've told me. You can say it but I'll call it utter BS.

Are we talking about cases of people being tortured? Are we talking about debilitating terminal illnesses? Are we talking about people stuck in burning buildings? No, we are talking about kids getting bullied at school. Talk about strawman arguments.

No, we were talking about suicide in general. You were moralizing without any qualifications. Also, who's to say that chronic bullying cannot be absolutely devastating and intolerable to some people. Not everyone has the ability to cope. Some people are more emotionally sensitive than others and not by choice. Some also do not have support outside of school either. Some children have sh***y bigoted and selfish parents who put them down every day of their life for who they are or how they were born. Some parents don't like the fact that their child is queer or effeminate acting and decide to "man them up" and tell them it is their fault for being bullied.

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Of course everyone has a breaking point. What, exactly, is wrong with teaching them skills so that it takes longer to reach it, which is what I'm advocating here.

Nothing wrong with that, but I think it'd be more productive to try and change the ugly bigoted culture we have. Children learn to bully because they pick up on the attitudes of adults. Only children are allowed to be more overt because the consequences for their primitive monkey behavior are not as they would be if they were full grown adults. For instance, children do not get thrown in the slammer for violently assaulting other children the way they would if they were adults.

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As for moralizing, certain acts are right and certain acts are wrong, whether you or anyone else likes it or not.

Says you. Maybe your self-righteous attitude is wrong whether you like it or not? Is that not also a possibility?

Quote:

And a chronically depressed person may feel isolated and misunderstood? So your solution is to tell them "you're right, you are alone and no one else could ever understand.". Seems to me that would only reinforce those negative feelings.

Stop twisting things. I'm running out of patience here.

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Don't you think it might maybe be more helpful if they knew that people don't want them to die and would be hurt by it, which is what I'm advocating here.

Yes, but many do not know that based on how they are treated.

Quote:

Also, the comment about objectivity was directed toward someone else because every single post that person made was about their own experiences, as though no one who commits suicide could possibly feel differently than she did. Come to think of it, you're doing the exact same thing.

You're the one that made the insulting generalization that bullying victims commit suicide mainly to make bullies feel guilty.

Quote:

I never said my opinion wasn't influenced by my emotions, but at least I'm aware that others have a variety of reasons for feeling the way they do. Whereas you seem to be assuming that, because only one out of a myriad of reasons makes sense to you, every single suicidal person must be doing it for that reason.

The reason isn't the main issue. The issue is if someone feels there's nothing to lose by taking their own life, whatever the reason, something is very wrong and must be addressed immediately. Moralizing based on how you've been affected by suicide is pointless.

Quote:

And please point out to me where I said feeling suicidal was stupid. One cannot always control the way one feels. Acting on those feelings however, is a different matter.

I don't see a big difference. If someone is "feeling suicidal" what is meant is they are considering killing themselves as a possible plan of action.

Quote:

Speaking of things I never said, please also point out to me where I said depression was all in someone's head. I did say it affects a person's thought processes because, well, it does. If a person's thought process is not affected, then they do not have depression.

Well, you act as though self-image, self-esteem, and thought processes are the main symptoms of depression. You leave out things like the constant fatigue, emptiness, generalized anxiety, lack of motivation, and inability to experience pleasure in most ordinary activities. Though processes may be affected but they might not be the primary issue. Your though processes might also be affected when you're suffering from a bad case of the flu, or at least feeling a bit miserable can make it hard to feel upbeat and cheery about much. Depression can be the same way. You feel miserable for some reason but you might not even be aware of the feeling but simply project it onto the external circumstances you see yourself trapped in.

The idea that depression is just some kind of delusional negative state of mind is a little insulting. Dragging yourself through every day having little motivation nor experiencing pleasure in the way everyone around you does gets incredibly demoralizing after a while, especially when it lasts for years on end even with the help of antidepressants. Add external pressure and anxiety on top of this and life can easily seem like an endless black hole. I can't see how you would think suicide is irrational from the point of view of someone who has simply had enough of that kind of existence.

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15 Jan 2012, 3:21 am

mds_02 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

mds_02 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Yes and yes, unless there is proof otherwise I am not really so convinced people are better off with me existing. But there are safer things I can do than try to kill myself so I try to stick to those.

that's kinda contradictory. but, then again, emotions often are. so, fair enough.

Wait does that contradict? if there are actual reasons for me to feel like people are better off without me...then naturally that is how I would feel, unless there is something that indicates they are better off with me then I won't feel there is.

you said part of being suicidal for you is that you feel that people would be better off without you.

you also said that if it were ingrained into you that people were not better off without you, it wouldn't help.

that is a contradiction.

I have no intention of giving you a hard time for it though, because it is an emotional response, and emotions are often contradictory.

also, I believe there are likely many things that indicate that people are better off with you around. but, I believe that your depression prevents you from seeing them. as I've mentioned before, depression alters your thought patterns. one cannot say they have clinical depression, and also say that their thoughts (especially regarding their own self-worth) are as rational as they could be.

That's because if its not true it could not possibly be ingrained into me, I am not that open to suggestion that someone could convince me of something there is hardly any evidence at all for. Of course depression alters my thought patterns, that does not mean in reality I am really doing anyone any good.

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mds_02
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15 Jan 2012, 7:24 am

Forgive me Marshall if this post seems less clear than it could be. I'm on an iPad right now, and cutting your post into a bunch of separate quotes then responding is proving unreasonably difficult. But I'll try to respond to the points you made in the order you made them. Also, i've had some hours away from this discussion, I've cooled off a bit and, coming back to it now, I think we are both getting too close to turning this into nothing but a series of personal attacks. I'm sorry for my part in that, and I hope that we can keep the discussion going in a more civil manner.

We were not talking about suicide in general, or at least I wasn't. I think the things I say are applicable to most suicides, but my focus was on kids who do it due to bullying. If you need me to qualify my statements, then I'll do it right now; there are rare occasions when suicide is reasonable. If a person has a very painful and incurable medical condition, if a person is facing torture, if a person is doing it to protect the lives of others, if a person is about to die in an even more unpleasant manner, these are rational reasons. The only thing is, aside from those with the incurable medical conditions, these circumstances are exceedingly rare.

You talk about changing our bigoted culture. That is a noble goal, but one that will take many generations to accomplish. There are children in the here and now who need to learn how to survive the culture we actually live in.

You seem to have a problem with anyone calling any action or statement wrong, unless it's you calling me wrong. Obviously, I believe you have every right to tell me I'm wrong as often as you please, but you can't have it both ways. You cannot say that actions or beliefs cannot be declared wrong without being inside the person's head, and then declare my beliefs wrong.

I honestly don't see how I am twisting your statements. I am for showing people that others care about them, and will be terribly hurt if they were to commit suicide. I am for showing them that their problems can be overcome. You are arguing against me about that. So, I have no idea what it is you think we should teach people instead. No, I don't think you really want suicidal people to be told they truly are alone and that no one cares. But I cannot figure out what it is you do want them to be told. That statement was a very poorly worded attempt to figure out why you take issue with people being shown they are cared about, and that life can get better.

I did not say that suicide victims do it exclusively or mainly to make others feel guilty. I said that was one of a number of reasons that often exist simultaneously in the same mind. I am for eliminating as many of those reasons as possible. If we can convince those who think life cannot get better that it can, then we eliminate one reason. If we can convince those who think they are nothing but a burden to their loved ones that they aren't, then we eliminate another reason. And if we can convince those who want to evoke a certain emotional response that they will not get the one they want, then we have eliminated another reason.

I was not aware that the purpose of this thread was to talk a specific person out of suicide. No, I don't think saying the things I'm saying here will help someone who's already reached that crisis point. I do, however, think that we can change people's attitudes before they reach that point, and hopefully prevent them fom seeing suicide as a reasonable option to start with.

Honestly, even though I used those words myself, I do not like the term "feeling suicidal." I do not believe that being suicidal is an emotional state in and of itself. It is a desire that stems fom the emotional state of depression. Being depressed is not stupid, no emotion is. However, people's emotions cause them to want and to do stupid things all the time.

I did not say that a person's thought processes are the only thing affected by depression, nor did I mean to imply it. What I meant was that because of that one aspect of depression, a person with it cannot always trust their own perception of certain situations, especially those where their sense of self-worth is in question.

If the person were correct in their perception of life as an "endless black hole," then yes suicide would be a rational decision. I believe that it is irrational because the decision is based on a skewed and irrational thought process.

mds_02
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15 Jan 2012, 8:26 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

One of two things must be true here.

I'm right and your very low self esteem is preventing you from seeing what others see in you.

I do not mean that as an insult, i just mean that if i, a complete stranger, see value in your continued existence (and i know i'm not the only one on this board who does), then it is very hard to imagine that those close to you do not.

The other possibility is that you're right, and your loved ones do see you as nothing but a burden (I still do not believe this, by the way).

Either way, I've said everything on the topic I can think of that might be helpful, and am going to stop trying to convince you of your value. I hope that eventually you can reach a point where you feel better enough about yourself to begin the work of overcoming your depression. I do look forward to talking about other subjects with you when I see you around the board, but I've accepted that, for one reason or the other, this is not something I can help you with.

Last edited by mds_02 on 15 Jan 2012, 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

mds_02
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15 Jan 2012, 8:36 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:

Glad to see starry-eyed naivete isn't dead.

Is that directed at me?

marshall
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15 Jan 2012, 9:37 am

mds_02 wrote:

marshall wrote:

hanyo wrote:

When I was in school they did nothing about bullying and had no bullying awareness. Most people turned a blind eye toward it, told you to ignore it, or just told you that you that you needed to learn to deal with it yourself to get along when you grow up. I even had a school counselor tell me that people treated me the way they did because of how I acted. I didn't know how to act any other way.

The idea that dealing with bullying teaches one how to cope as an adult is utter BS. In school the best way to deal with bullies is to snap and kick the crap out of them every once in a while. If you spend your childhood doing this you're probably going to have anger issues when you grow up. Then you can't kick the crap out of your boss for abusing you without being thrown in jail or possibly sued. Bullying teaches nothing.

There are two different types of bullying. One is based mostly on verbal harassment. The best way to cope with that is to learn not to internalize every negative thing someone says about you, which is a very valuable skill for an adult to have.

There's also spreading viscous rumors and lies, posting personal or embarrassing information on the internet, threats, sabotage, theft, etc... Non-physical bullying can go well beyond simple verbal teasing/taunts.

Quote:

Then there is the kind based on physical violence. The best way to cope with that is to learn to physically defend yourself. No one blames an adult who kicks the crap out of someone in self-defense.

By the time someone acts in self-defense it can be too late. Bullies tend to physically confront in situations where they have the upper hand, i.e. when you are alone and they jump you as a group. In that case the best defense is to run away, but that does nothing to stop subsequent incidents. Sometimes the only defense is to take the offensive and beat the crap out of the bully first when they are not suspecting it, even if it will get you suspended or punished. Realistically that's often how it is. After a while it can corrupt the victim turning them into a violent angry person who sometimes acts like a bully themselves.

Quote:

Of course, now there are a ton of people who are thinking that because I think coping skills are a good thing, I must think bullying is ok.

I have nothing against teaching coping skills, but they've got to be realistic.

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15 Jan 2012, 9:56 am

mds_02 wrote:

We're more on the same page than you think. I mainly take issue with your claim that suicide is "stupid". Also, speaking scientifically, if one's brain can't produce the right chemicals/signals to induce pleasure and positive feelings, life may literally be an endless black hole.

Perhaps a lot of suicides do occur due to faulty perceptions and/or an impulsive decision in a time of extreme emotional distress. I'm sure there are plenty of other cases though. Cases of people who've simply had enough of living with chronic, seemingly untreatable depression, with little or no social support. Someone is especially likely to consider suicide if they think they are expected by society to simply suck it up and go on and on living an unrewarding and stressful life as if nothing was wrong with them.

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15 Jan 2012, 10:14 am

You all seem to have big problems, I wouldn't want to be anyone of you.
considering your passionate nagging about "bullies" they might have really ruined your life.
I'm sorry for you.
But I still believe that the reason for suicide is not the bully itself.
The bully does only eliminate the victims illusion of being strong and smart.
If I would realise that I'm weak and helpless and don't have the ability of asserting myself in life I would neither see a reason for living.
When I was sick for many years and didn't know why I was also in such a suicidal situation though I did realise my helpless situation myself and didn't have to be bullied to begin with self reflection.

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15 Jan 2012, 10:32 am

marshall wrote:

mds_02 wrote:

marshall wrote:

hanyo wrote:

Quote:

Then there is the kind based on physical violence. The best way to cope with that is to learn to physically defend yourself. No one blames an adult who kicks the crap out of someone in self-defense.

Quote:

Of course, now there are a ton of people who are thinking that because I think coping skills are a good thing, I must think bullying is ok.

I have nothing against teaching coping skills, but they've got to be realistic.

Okay, i'm going to make this very very clear. I am very aware that bullying goes far far beyond verbal taunts, or maybe getting shoved into a locker or something. With the things that happened to me when i was young, i cannot help but know that. Believe me when i tell you that i've had about as hard a lesson as one can have in what monsters people can be to each other, and believe me when i tell you that i am perfectly aware of how badly it can f**k a person up. I'm 30, and I'm still far from over it.

I'm trying really hard to keep my cool here, but I'm getting really tired of people in this thread assuming that because I disagree with them, that I must not know what's really happening.

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15 Jan 2012, 10:43 am

Quote:

Perhaps a lot of suicides do occur due to faulty perceptions and/or an impulsive decision in a time of extreme emotional distress. I'm sure there are plenty of other cases though. Cases of people who've simply had enough of living with chronic, seemingly untreatable depression, with little or no social support. Someone is especially likely to consider suicide if they think they are expected by society to simply suck it up and go on and on living an unrewarding and stressful life as if nothing was wrong with them.

The ones you describe at the start of the paragraph, I believe they are the majority. And i've never said that people need to just "suck it up." But i do think that people need to be aware of certain truths before they even get to the point where they are considering it. Firstly, that except in very very rare cases, their current situation does not have to be permanent. Secondly, that except iin very rare cases there are some people that care about them (and that even if there aren't any right then, there are some out in the world, just waiting to be found). And thirdly, that the only people who will be hurt by a suicide are the ones that genuinely care about the person.

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15 Jan 2012, 12:39 pm

awes wrote:

The only bully that can't be conquered is the one we sometimes let live in our minds. Evict that monster and things will change. For me, it took a lot of rage.

Weakness and Helplessness are often taught or conditioned and can be unlearned. It is not an inborn quality of an individual, but a circumstantial mal-adaption in most cases. It is much like: The person has negative experiences and based on those, he predetermines the outcome of all future experiences with his negative outlook and behaviors. There is almost some kind of hidden invitation.

Here is an example for you:

If I am a mixed martial artist and I am walking down the street, I will have a different look in my posture, facial expression, etc when I walk in a dangerous neighborhood because I know that if anyone tries to harm me, he is going to get the surprise ass kicking of his life. People will sense my confidence and they are less likely to perceive me as a victim.

On the other hand, if I walk into that same neighborhood and I am fearful, the predators will sense that I am fearful and they will be MUCH MORE likely to attack.

This is monstrosity in human nature. If you want to believe that it is survival of the fittest, consider that generally, the most aggressive people often are criminals, often with a low IQ.

Another reason this is not an instinct of survival of the fittest is: Consider rape. Predators look for the weakest, most vulenrable women to attack. If the theory of survival of the fittest applies, then they should be attracted to stronger, more confident females. It has nothing to do with anything other than physical or mental gratification.

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15 Jan 2012, 12:52 pm

I'm just glad to be out of school and wouldn't go through that again for anything. There is no other time in your life where you are so forced to go someplace and spend lots of time around people against your will even if they abuse you. As an adult if you have a job you can at least quit or try to get a different one. As a minor you are forced by law to attend school no matter what.

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15 Jan 2012, 12:54 pm

hanyo wrote:

((( Hugs ))) I know how you feel. It was that way for me too.

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15 Jan 2012, 1:06 pm

mds_02 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Well its not your job to convince me of it, so that is quite fine.

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