Toxic friendship

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****trigger warning for discussion of self-harm****

I have this friend who's a real downer. He's so depressing that everyone who lives within a two-mile radius has to take Zoloft. He's so depressing that the sky darkens when he walks outside. If you rolled the Holocaust, the AIDS epidemic, 9/11, and every album the Cure ever recorded into a ball and set it on a collision course with a bus full of schoolchildren, the aftermath would only be slightly more depressing than my friend. He is ruining my online social life and keeping me up at night, and I've only met him in person once.

Allow me to explain.

J and I met on Facebook two years ago. I was desperate for friends, and he seemed chipper and accepting, if a bit excessively religious (Eastern Orthodox). We talked a lot and started getting close. It was about a month after our meeting that the enroachment of grimness began. I found out that J was gay, and that his religiosity prompted him to cut and burn himself as punishment for this. Stupidly, I took it upon myself to convince J that it was okay to be gay so that he would stop hurting himself (note to past self: you are not a psychiatric professional; don't be a hero!). I wasted hours fighting Orthodox nutjobs off his page, only to learn that J was actively seeking out the craziest possible Christians because he craved their nasty words. Day after day, despairing status update after despairing status update, suicide threat after suicide threat, I became J's closest friend and staunchest defender.

We met once at the sleepover of a mutual friend. He ignored me and had to leave quickly because he was allergic to the mutual friend's cat.

After he attempted suicide despite my constant battles, I decided that he was beyond my help and I quietly unfriended him. A few months later he refriended me, saying that he had left the Orthodox church, found a boyfriend, become a rabid Lady Gaga fan, and moved out of his (apparently emotionally abusive) mother's house. I rejoiced - finally, he would stop hurting himself!

This state of affairs did not last. The boyfriend dumped him because of his clinginess, cutting, and constant suicide threats. After the breakup, J plunged into a depression so serious that I checked his Facebook page every morning to make sure he was still alive. Whenever I went on FB chat to try to talk to my newly acquired college friends, he was there waiting with some request - talk me out of suicide, Rachael. Spy on my ex's page - he's blocked me, Rachael. Help me decide on whether to go over to his house again, Rachael. Tell me how to fake a recovery from mental illness so I can get him back, Rachael. I worried about him constantly.

He finally went to a psychiatric professional and was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder and Bipolar I. This explained a lot, but it didn't make our exchanges any better. Always the happy hello and the smiley faces, followed by stuff like this:

Him; [random quote from the movie Girl, Interrupted]
Me: J, you shouldn't be watching such depressing movies.
Him: Did you know that burning hurts worse than cutting?
Me: ARE YOU SUICIDAL???
Him: No.
Me: I'm glad. Sorry I asked.
Him: I could be lying, though. I've lied before. If I don't want anyone to help me, why would I tell you the truth?
Me: J, don't play mind games; it stresses me out.
Him: What mind games? We're just talking.

Recently he has restarted his Christian-condemnation-seeking behavior, randomly contacting Christians he knows and asking for their thoughts on homosexuality. Tonight he contacted me and begged me to reassure him after a particularly horrible conversation. He said that the Orthodox people are "preying" on him and trying to get him back into the fold after his breakup, but that he finds their words "seductive." He says that he listens to Orthodox chants as an unwanted compulsion. I had had a great day, but after my conversation with J I became too nervous to sleep.

I feel like there is nothing I can do. I feel worthless against the onslaught of his misery, but if I dump him I could make him worse. Hence the depressingness of this friend.

At this point, I just want a safe way to get rid of him.

Hah. I could have told you BPD before even reading that line. Not only does he have BPD, he is also narcissistic, masochistic, and passive aggressive.

Distance yourself from him or it will never end until he does kill himself or drives you to kill yourself.

How do I let go?

I tried posting this topic with different wording on a forum for bipolar disorder and personality disorders, but the mods mutilated it. They removed all "triggering" references to suicide even though my main problem with this person is his suicidality. I feel like I can't get any help!

For some reason, I found this part hilarious.

You must fake your own death!

But seriously, unless he matures to the point that he stops his emotional blackmail, you should let go. Easily said, I know.

You feel responsible for him because he appears unable to emotionally survive without you. He takes and takes, but he doesn't grow or give anything back. Healthy relationships are not based on fear, and he does not understand that. By allowing him to threaten you into a relationship, you prove to him that he can get your attention with suicide threats. You deserve to have control over your relationship with him, and he needs to know that.

He will stand up with his own strength if he stands at all. Call his bluff. If he isn't bluffing, he will probably kill himself anyway.

On the forum I help modding we have a standard sop for suicide threats.

We make it very clear that we are not doctors or therapists and we refer the person to the nearest suicide hotline. Things like this are way too dangerous to risk playing doctor yourself.
You could as easily make things worse instead of better as you never know how someone will react to what you say. By taking this on your shoulders you are accepting a responsibility that is to great for you.
On top of that, if you decide to get involved and it goes wrong you will end up with a lifetime guilt complex.

If you want to be his friend still, make it clear to him that you will not play his game.

What you describe is not a friendship at all, but I understand exactly where you're coming from. I had a relationship once that was similar. I won't go into details, but the suicide threats and such were common. Eventually, I realized that her mental illness was not my burden, and that, while I hoped she would be ok, I was not helping by responding. So I distanced myself from her. You can't do it by halves; you can't keep responding to anything non-suicidal, but yet not respond to anything suicidal. That only results in more desperate attempts to get your attention. I didn't do it overnight, I did it slowly. I started by deliberately taking a few extra hours to respond to anything she sent. If she called, I didn't answer, but I did return the call a few hours later. If she emailed, I wouldn't respond immediately, I'd put the email aside for a few hours. After a few weeks of this, she was already contacting me less. I started to make it a day or two of delay on each communication. Eventually, she stopped trying to contact me.

You could even do that with chat. I don't know about FB chat, since I don't use it, but many chat clients tell the other person whether you're active or idle. If you can change that setting, so it doesn't tell them, then do that. Then he won't know if you're actually at your computer or not, and you can delay responding to the messages. I don't care how desperate or immediate they seem; you're going to come back in an hour or two and say "oh, hi, sorry I missed your messages. I wasn't at the computer. Are you ok now?" If the chat client doesn't let you turn off the active/idle notification, then you can still come up with something; you were on the phone and couldn't concentrate on two conversations at once, or someone else was using your computer, etc. Whatever is most plausible for you. You can even, if necessary, type "can't chat now, bbl" when you first get the messages, but type nothing else, no matter what he says, for that hour or two.

And, most importantly, remember that you have encouraged him to get help. You have objected to his behavior of seeking out people who will criticize him. If he does kill himself successfully (highly unlikely, but possible), it is NOT YOUR FAULT. You are not responsible for someone else's mental illness, any more than anyone else is responsible for managing your AS.

This type of person will try to make you feel like you are the ONLY ONE who can help, but it's never true. They say that in order to force you to make them your top priority. FWIW, the person I distanced myself from is now doing just fine. I have not heard through the grapevine of any more suicide attempts, which doesn't mean there haven't been any, but it is a good sign. We do still have mutual friends, so I might actually hear if she had gone downhill again.

I vomited a little as I read this.

I once knew a dude just like this. Reading your experience brought back the hair-pulling anger I felt daily when I was friends with my suicidal acquaintance. Ahh... dumping him as a friend and completely ignoring him was the best thing I ever did. I think he died, though. Not from suicide (wow... that sounded crass), but because he was morbidly obese and had a short-life prognosis anyway. Haven't heard from the guy in years.

Either way, I understand your pain. Sadly, and as a BPD myself, there is nothing you can do, sugar. I know how hard it is and you want to help, but there is nothing you can do. I agree with above posters in telling him to call a suicide hotline. Maybe you can call the police on him one time when he is threatening suicide (if you know where he lives). He'll go in for psychiatric evaluation... right? Not sure how that works. Either way, this guy is way above anyone's help who isn't a professional and needs a professional closely working with him.

Trust me. This is definitely, as you said, a toxic friendship and it will only bring you down with it. Just tell him, "I am sorry, but I can no longer be your friend. Your depression is affecting me negatively and I am afraid I will harm you by giving you more advice. You need professional help that I cannot offer you." Then, just leave him alone and ignore him completely.

That's my advice, at least. Good luck!

Yeah, I agree with the others. You're just going to have to pull the plug on this. You've done your best and it's not making any difference.

I've an idea... why don't you ring a support line (like Samaritans) yourself and explain the situation and how it's affecting you and ask how they would advise you let go of the friendship? They're the experts after all.

Drawing out all negative influences in your life is the only way to keep your sanity. This relationship is VERY unhealthy, as it could lead you into a deep period of depression and low self esteem yourself, and these phases are hard to get out of. You don't want to slow your development and growth as a person because some manipulator makes you feel like you're his lifeline. Anyone who'd want to make you feel guilty if he died is not a true friend.

This tells me that since he wasn't getting reinforcement for being negative, he tried to convince you he'd changed his outlook because it was the only way you'd talk to him again. This also says that he knows exactly what he's doing to you, which means he is a psychopath as well as a narcissist and manipulator.



Reinforces the above. He never learns a damn thing and he will never change the way he treats those who leave him. He will say anything to have someone constantly validating him.

If you're worried about making things worse for him (f.e. him comitting suicide) when you end your friendship with him - don't. He's already made it through abusive step parents, break up, and ridecule for homosexuality. He can deal with this too. In fact, by keeping this relationship you have with him, you're already making things worse by being an enabler. He's only going to feel inclined to help himself when he realizes nobody is going to do it for him.

You had the best intentions and obviously a heart of gold, but at some point you have to cut him loose and live for yourself. When you do, he will probably say everything he can think of to get you to stick with him, but don't be discouraged. Good luck, you have my sympathy.

I think flowerncsu's idea about delaying replies is very good. I'd try that, if you either don't want to cut contact completely or don't feel able to.

My own experience of two people with bipolar and suicidal periods, ( both of which I have also had ), was that for ages I tried to get them to "think positive", or I commiserated with them about how horrible things were if it didn't go "too" far, but I eventually realised that there was no point arguing with or denying their world view, their negative thoughts, etc or in fighting their suicidal statements with no, that's not true, no, don't do that, no you don't have to do that, no, you're not x, y, or z.

I was able to move away from one of them, in the pre-internet era too so contact shrank almost to zero, and then she gradually got her life together and we are now good friends again, by telephone mainly.

But I did something which might seem a bit shocking with the other friend ( who I loved very much ). One time when she talked about suicide ( for the umpteenth time ) I went round to her flat and discussed, in detail/depth, various ways and means of killing herself with her. I helped her to investigate the possibility of hanging herself from somewhere, ( I stood on a stepladder to see if a trapdoor to storage space could be used, etc ), helped her tidy up her flat for when she would be "found", etc ... and she has, as far as I know, ( and we are still, if not that often, in touch ), never been seriously suicidal ever again, has in fact turned her life around, ... as if being taken seriously, being listened to and not constantly "argued with", having *her* subjective experience and *her* very real and desperate longings "respected", like in any ordinary conversation with a good friend, helped her in some way. I "accepted" her; she was accepted even in her most awful/taboo impulses. She, her deepest darkest self and darkest world-view, was no longer some sort of unacceptable, or irrational/crazy/deluded horror of a creature to be denied, dismissed, shut up/away, or converted/transformed into a "desirably happy/constructive" little person. *She* was "ok".

PS. I did something similar with myself, only a lot later, ( it's funny how it's so often easier to see how to react helpfully to someone else than with oneself ), when finding myself standing at the window of the eleventh floor of a block of flats, 5 years ago now, looking out at the world below and thinking how like viruses people were, how like a foul and miserable blight humans were, how awful humanity was, and that life was total s*** ( ie. I was feeling very depressed ) ... and instead of, ( as I usually did ), telling myself in the same moment not to be so negative and that it wasn't true, and that I was obviously wrongly believing certain unhelpful beliefs about myself and life ... I thought yes, as far as I'm concerned, ( and at this moment ), humans are like ants, virulent viruses, life *is* s***! I allowed myself to agree with myself, to accept my world view/subjective experience, to experience it as "true", my reality ... And I felt jubilation! I was so happy! It was a turning point. I accepted my "own reality", and in so doing freeed myself from its hold to a significant extent.
.

I think that you're going to have to end your friendship, with him. He doesn't seem stable, and I don't want for you to be affected by it, any longer. You're too good, for that.

Best. Advice. Ever.

You need to be objective, blunt and non-emotional about it. Don't let that message get emotional or garbled. Do not respond to further contact and turn it over to the universe. Yes. Easier said than done, but in the long run only he can make the decision to make his life better by honestly seeking help from professionals, or he can continue this dance. In a way, he's just an addict with a different drug...and it's your attention that gives him a fix.

See that being in contact with him is harming you, in the long run, and make a decision for yourself to make your own life better as well. It will hurt, but in the long run you're helping both of you.

I may not know if I am AS, but I do know I was classified as Bipolar Type 1 over 8 years ago.
I have also known people with BPD.

Edited because .. oops.. I forgot to say, I am not like this. At all. Nobody I have ever known that was bipolar, any types was like this.
However the BPD ones.. yes, very much like this.




I completely agree with you, plus I would like to add one more veritable - MissP doesn't kill herself, but ends up dead.

Get away from him, sooner the better.

Last edited by Surya on 28 Jul 2010, 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Definitely terminate your friendship with him. I don't think it'd even be necessary to send him a message explaining why - FB has privacy settings to block people from showing up on your page - but if it would make you feel better to send one, make it concise and straightforward.

I knew someone like this when I was younger, about thirteen. Being young and stupid, and slightly overwhelmed that there was a real girl actually talking to me (completely failing to notice the possibility that a sixteen-year-old girl with a cutting problem, polyamorous and SM leanings, and entirely too much interest in younger people may have a few issues,) I basically made her the center of my universe. Which "began" to go poorly maybe two months later, when she told one of her teachers that she planned to kill herself and got a nice little stay in the psych ward for a week or two.

If you think the way I did, upon trying to get rid of him you're afraid of how your actions will cause him to respond. Don't be, please, for your own sanity - his responses to your actions are not your responsibility. He likely has other people in his life, who would protect him from himself if need be. Try to keep yourself sane and detached from him - socially and mentally.

Good luck.

Hi,
I am actually might have some ideas as to why your friend might being thinking about suicide. The first is for the reason that he is attending a church with a bunch of religious fanatics who are making him feel bad for being gay. Second, he has a mother who is always putting him down for his homosexuality and so he is feeling guilty for being gay and being picked which is aggravating his circumstances. As for him being toxic, I would like to mention that he will continue to drag you down emotionally with him level of problems and his issues are beyond your control and he has to want to help himself.

He also sounds like he is a manipulator in contacting you and telling you that he is depressed and is going to kill himself if you don't contact him el pronto so be careful. I would not invest very much time in him if he continues to try and drag you down like that.