Sexism against guys

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I want to strenuously disagree with this point. Prevention, as in awareness, does not necessarily mean fear. For example, in driving: one wants to be aware that there's a car stopped at a cross street (1- or 2-way stop) ahead, and from there one might get the feeling that it is going to dart out at the last second; one plans what you'll do if the car starts to move, and thereby has a faster, smoother reaction when the car actually does dart out.
For a self defense example, one wants to have one's head up and be looking and listening for other humans as one walks to the car at night, but that doesn't mean that one has to always be afraid - no more than we are always afraid when we drive our cars, even though it's statistically the most dangerous thing we do. It doesn't mean never to walk alone at night, but rather to be aware of the risks of walking alone at night and take steps to minimize those risks (take your dog, take a weapon and be willing to use it, train in self-defense, be aware of one's surroundings to minimize the likelihood of a surprise attack, etc).

p.s. what's 'wen-do'?

On model mugging and self defense, for Anemone:

I don't mean to imply that it isn't a good program, for what it is. I just believe a slightly more comprehensive program is better.

Gang rape is not uncommon, particularly in lower class/gang intensive cultures. You are correct, that it's not about four or five thugs who follow you home; usually it's people you know, sometimes people you love.

I know for myself, the experience of having five other people hold me down while I did everything I possibly could to stop them was horrifically eye opening; nothing else has ever taught me so intimately and irrevokably about how perfectly helpless we all are as humans. I was not gang raped, but I did learn that there is never a perfect system of self defense.


This is why I really want to emphasize that, while having a sensible (proactive and effectiveness driven but not paranoid) approach to self defense is important, there's a wider issue at stake here--and that would be social acceptance of violence against the small and the weak.

I feel we should have zero social tolerance for violence and harassment against individuals smaller and weaker than one's self, with limited exceptions for childrearing.

Edit: And, I forgot to mention--getting back to the original subject matter--thank you for the interesting and informative post. The MM instructors I've met didn't seem as good at it as yours.

Last edited by Jainaday on 04 Oct 2008, 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

QFT on both points.

While technically this is true, there are a lot of fear-mongering "rape prevention" programs out there--and many of them do recommend measures that would severely hinder my sanity and sense of freedom as though they should be taken for granted.

For awhile, I went through a number of these programs. I am sure that these measures would decrease the chance of stranger rape. So would remaining indoors with all doors and windows locked at all times.

I'm aware of what they have to say, and I try to think about it as little as possible while still doing what I reasonably can to ensure my own safety.


My greatest concern with this emphasis on prevention is that it romanticizes the atmosphere of threat. I live in a college town where guys routinely offer to gallantly walk home girls who are statistically at less risk alone. Worse than this, I know girls who won't walk through a parking lot alone at night to get to their cars. Your options under that policy, as a woman, are very limiting.

I don't object to prevention, per sae, but when there comes to be a social expectation that women will do these things to "take responsibility for their own safety," the general sentiment seems to forget that rape is not just a matter of "boys being boys.". . . that, in fact, there is responsibility, and it belongs entirely to the rapists.

A nit of my own to pick, or semantics I guess: I would say that the fault lies entirely with the rapist, but that a woman does have some responsibility for her own safety. I say this because responsibility comes with power, and women do have the power to lower their risk of being attacked.

Not - and maybe this is your point - that they should have to, in a world where all men showed self-control and self-awareness.

But even where there are no evil humans, there may be bears or mountain lions (literally, in my area).

I can see where you're coming from. ..

I feel that individuals have a responsibility to their own safety only in so far as they plan to complain about harm after it's happened. Since, with such strong cultural currents towards blaming the victim, rape victims should have the right to complain even if they didn't engage in the kind of prevention you describe, it seems right to linguistically displace all responsibility on to the attacker. . . who is, after all, not a mountain lion.

It's not going to stop people from engaging in rape prevention.


This is what I get from reading too much Derrida. . .

Well if you expect me to feel sorry for pretty gals simply because they happen to look good, Too Bad-cos I really DONT. Whenever I hear such women complaining about what a b***h is to have sex appeal I snicker because if there were in the opposite situation, that is, if they were ugly they'd be MUCH unhappier . Look here, its A LOT LESS EFFORT for a pretty woman to flaunt her sexuality for personal gain and sleep her way to the top than it is to put in the time and effort into accomplishing something! I dont see WHY you're so disappointed that women achievers are often not very pretty.
But perhaps aspie women who are endowned with good looks have difficulty learning how to use their sex appeal to get what they want.....that is, if they Ever do at all.

No one's asking you to feel sorry for them. Just try to treat them like any other people.

Some of us feel pretty terrible if/when we realize our sex appeal has accomplished something on our behalf--because we'd never "use it" that way on purpose. Once more, not a reason to feel sorry--a reason to treat us like ordinary human beings. It would also be nice if you made some effort not to presume ulterior motives.

Prevention:

When I lived in Calgary, there was this one two-block section of a major street that gave me the total creeps. I never went down it a second time. Everywhere else I felt safe, any time of day or night. Later I learned that most of the stranger-murders happened here because of the drug dealing. Since that time I think the police have cleaned that section up somewhat.

Good prevention is avoiding a particular area if it feels wrong. Bad prevention would be listening to all the fear mongering and allowing it to drown out your own instincts. Yes, there is a lot of fear mongering out there, including on the part of people who want to "help". My sister and I always used to get outraged by it, because we knew from personal experience that the stuff they warn you about isn't usually the biggest threat. But on the other hand if women want an escort to the bus stop or their car late at night, it gives security something to do, so I don't object to making that sort of thing available.

The same issues come up with hiking. Search and Rescue would like people to take certain precautions when they go hiking, avoid bears, carry the ten essentials. They say things like never hike alone. I always hike alone because I find it more enjoyable. There are days where the warnings can get to me, and I think about how empty that wilderness can be, but then there are times when I go hiking on a busy day and wish I hadn't, because it's so much better for me when I have the place to myself. SAR means well, and they may save lives (I have no idea), but in the end it's a personal decision what risks to take. I don't know how many people get that. I think if the fear mongering constrains you too much, you'll blow up, then make your own decisions. I don't know if it's possible to stop fear mongering though - to a certain extent it feeds some sort of group need. Look at global warming, after all.

Haliphron, some of us would rather work hard to get ahead. It feels better. Being expected to prostitute ourselves because we're female feels like some sort of insult, for some reason . . .

But I know that whatever issues you have with women aren't going to be resolved here. Maybe, with any luck, you'll grow out of your attitude some day.

Well I sure hope so....I suppose when I find a woman who takes people at face value and will Reciprocate respectful treatment and not try to play games with me,I have a feeling I'll soften my stance. But what I see here, not just in my case, is that MANY Aspies have a very difficult time relating to and empathizing with the opposite sex! If I were a pretty woman I have no doubt my life experiences would VASTLY different and I would probably see the world differently than I do; but Im not and so I cant really empathize with those who are. But yeah, I have my issues but from what Ive seen here on WP I am not the only man or woman who has issues like this. Consider this: I met my first gf 7 years ago this november and the entire year before I met her I was feeling bitter and I went around causually referring to women as b*****s and ho's cuz I was angry at them from being repeatedly rejected. But then I GOT a gf and I realized I had to stop acting this way because now I had what I had been wanting so badly. Perhaps in the future when Im UnSingle I'll try to be a little nicer(but dont forget: nice guys finish last )

Basing your opinion of an entire gender on the quality of your "love life" is really immature and shallow. Not all women are evil and manipulative, and they don't all deserve to be treated as such. Do you like it when they treat all of us this way?

NO, I dont. However, when I encounter women who portray men in such a way I react very strongly to counter such sentiments.
BTW, I WAS very immature when I met my first gf at the age of 19 but things Have changed for me. You see what really got to me is when I brought up the yet-unanswered question as to why there is this never-ending *battle of the sexes* and Jainadays reply came across as suggesting that men are predominantly(in not exclusively) to blame for it. I seriously do not believe that for a moment and I Do find that attitude on womens part to be offensive. I NEVER tried to suggest that women are the ones to blame for all this but I DID assert that it is as much their fault and their problem as it is mens. I am totally unwilling to bear the responsibility for what men did in the past before I came into this world and will not allow myself to be manipulated with guilt by gender feminists.I think BokeKaeru really has got the right attitude in the other thread about sexism.

It's good that you're able to admit this and move forward, unlike many guys who continue to try and justify their sexism.


I mostly agree, particularly with the part about us being responsible for the actions of our ancestors... It wasn't my fault that the Roman Empire took over a huge chunk of the world and infected it with their sexist ideas, nor was it my fault that the European settlers exterminated most of the Native Americans and enslaved the Africans.

One thing I've noticed is that sexism tends to be introduced early on in a child's life, and reinforced by their peers, the media, and sometimes their religion. As early as preschool, boys and girls are taught to hate each other and play these games. Do you remember hearing any phrases like these from your childhood: "BOYS RULE! GIRLS DROOL!" "GIRLS GO TO COLLEGE TO GET MORE KNOWLEDGE! BOYS GO TO JUPITER TO GET MORE STUPIDER!" I heard them, and it's my theory that the "battle of the sexes" starts very early on in a person's life, and many people never fully grow out of it.

I dont quite agree with you there cyberman. It seems to be a normal and innate part of child development to dislike the opposite sex until you hit puberty. But what I have asked Repeatedly is Why so many women here on WP have issues with Men as a whole. I dont think I'll get an honest answer cos I dont think many of them really know why they feel the way they do. Perhaps its because as aspies they lack the empathy to get inside the head of a member of the opposite sex, just like us aspie men do.

What does that have to do with getting the answer your looking for though?

Your answer lies I think more in line with they "really don't want to give you an answer" or "don't believe you should have the answer."

Though everyone has their reasons, to me it would seem those two call out much of the greater degree. Generally speaking, if you interrogate someone, they will eventually give you an answer.

However, in things which when interrogated they give you nothing...the two above tend to be the reason why no answer was given.

You could try a different approach on asking the question...or masking your intent if you REALLY REALLY are obsessed with discovering the thing you seek. However, that would probably end in a big headache, so I'm certainly not going to encourage that course of action.

Regardless of whether or not they can empathize or get in another's head, everyone has a belief pertaining to ideas(or mulitple beliefs). Even if they have multiple beliefs, they should be able to provide you with something.