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kokopelli
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29 Apr 2025, 10:54 pm

We had load bearing structures all over the world long before we had the calculus to evaluate the strength of those structures.

By your argument, we could not have had spears or bows and arrows prior to having the calculus to evaluate their flight paths.



cyberdora
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30 Apr 2025, 5:29 am

^^^ I'll go with the engineer. According to convention, the Egyptians and Romans developed load-bearing structures without the benefit of modern calculus. They relied on empirical methods, observation, and practical experience, alongside mathematical principles known at the time, to design and build massive structures.

But it's one thing to make prediction without calculus for load bearing involving 500kg-1 tonne stones, it's quite another when you are predicting load bearing for 80-100 tonnes like the upper chambers of the Kings Gallery of the great pyramid some 40 feet high or the trillion stones in Balbek Lebanon where the load being carried varies from 750-1000 tonnes all without calculus.



funeralxempire
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30 Apr 2025, 2:32 pm

CD, it seems like you're applying the god of the gaps fallacy to all sorts of unanswered questions in anthropology and archaeology, only substituting god with aliens or Hancockian civilizations. It's pseudoscience quackery without any positive evidence.

The goalposts and standards of required evidence shift back and forth as need be so you can justify dismissing any other proposed solutions, while protecting your pet speculation (since it's not a theory and it's not even a hypothesis).


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funeralxempire
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30 Apr 2025, 5:11 pm

Regarding ancient technologically sophisticated societies:

Metal ores are never pure when extracted and when you smelt them you also smelt the impurities.

One common impurity is lead, and some of it burns off as during the smelting process and enters the water cycle, where it eventually winds up in sediments and becomes a measurable signal in the geological record.

If you want to find evidence of a technological civilization that worked with metals, you just need to look for lead in the sediment record. If you don't see a spike in lead, then you know there wasn't a technological civilization active at that corresponding time.

Meaning:

Hancockian civilizations were either limited to stone technology (greatly undermining the idea they were far more advanced than the neolithic societies who's accomplishments people insist on doubting) or that they simply did not exist at all.

Or more bluntly: Graham Hanhock being correct is precluded by the available evidence. With that in mind, he's probably not the best guy to cite as an expert.


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cyberdora
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30 Apr 2025, 5:20 pm

^^^ Don't get me wrong, I am not invalidating all conventional archaeological theories. But I am pointing out the obvious that conventional theories cannot adequately account for the non-linear development of building technology in ancient times across the entire globe.

And its not just buildings, statues and even pottery show non-linear development where older finds show advanced workmanship which by 2000BC suddenly seemed to no longer be used, whether you are talking about the middle east, South America or the Indo-Pacific.

the Indus Valley civilisation is a great example of this. an unknown people established planned cities built out of brick with drainage, and indoor plumbing 6000 years ago. then around 1500BC India went through a dark ages where people only lived in thatched huts or mud brick till the arrival of Europeans.



funeralxempire
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30 Apr 2025, 5:28 pm

cyberdora wrote:
^^^ Don't get me wrong, I am not invalidating all conventional archaeological theories. But I am pointing out the obvious that conventional theories cannot adequately account for the non-linear development of building technology in ancient times across the entire globe.

And its not just buildings, statues and even pottery show non-linear development where older finds show advanced workmanship which by 2000BC suddenly seemed to no longer be used, whether you are talking about the middle east, South America or the Indo-Pacific.

the Indus Valley civilisation is a great example of this. an unknown people established planned cities built out of brick with drainage, and indoor plumbing 6000 years ago. then around 1500BC India went through a dark ages where people only lived in thatched huts or mud brick till the arrival of Europeans.


I think your understanding is off.

Do you really think everyone in the IVC was living in advanced housing? I'd wager most of them lived in much simpler housing than what the elites in the wealthiest portion were housed it.

Further, India also produced building like the one pictured below without outside help.

Image

Also, the arrival of Europeans didn't change much when it came to the housing in India, whether for elites or for the lower classes.

Finally, none of what you're saying supports your earlier claim that Hancock was correct, so do you mind clarifying if you're conceding on the idea Hancock was correct or just trying to distract from your last argument not withstanding much scrutiny?


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cyberdora
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30 Apr 2025, 5:29 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Regarding ancient technologically sophisticated societies:

Metal ores are never pure when extracted and when you smelt them you also smelt the impurities.

One common impurity is lead, and some of it burns off as during the smelting process and enters the water cycle, where it eventually winds up in sediments and becomes a measurable signal in the geological record.

If you want to find evidence of a technological civilization that worked with metals, you just need to look for lead in the sediment record. If you don't see a spike in lead, then you know there wasn't a technological civilization active at that corresponding time.


Metal work is a great example of lost technology. Have you heard of Wootz steel? It was made in southern India and now the use of this form of Iron was found as far back as 3345BC
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 496995.cms

So this makes India the foundation of the iron age. Wootz steel was exported from India to the middle east and even found its way to Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel

But what's strange is the technology used to develop wootz steel is now lost. A high technology developed 5500 years ago but never really improved from that time. Again like simple batteries found in turkey 2000 years ago, a linear evolution of technology should have seen advancements that never happened, it's as if things went backwards.



cyberdora
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30 Apr 2025, 5:32 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Do you really think everyone in the IVC was living in advanced housing? I'd wager most of them lived in much simpler housing than what the elites in the wealthiest portion were housed it.


Actually the IVC had no hierarchy in housing
https://www.resilience.org/stories/2023 ... ilization/

also communal bathing and shared granaries. No evidence of an elite.



funeralxempire
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30 Apr 2025, 5:35 pm

cyberdora wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Do you really think everyone in the IVC was living in advanced housing? I'd wager most of them lived in much simpler housing than what the elites in the wealthiest portion were housed it.


Actually the IVC had no hierarchy in housing
https://www.resilience.org/stories/2023 ... ilization/

also communal bathing and shared granaries. No evidence of an elite.


Even if within the largest settlements there was no evidence of an elite that doesn't mean people living on the periphery would have lived in the same sort of housing as the people at it's core.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


cyberdora
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30 Apr 2025, 5:41 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Further, India also produced building like the one pictured below without outside help.

Image


You do realise the taj Mahal is not even an Indian construction right? It was built by the invading Mughal emperor Shah Jehan to his wife. Both Shah Jehan and his wife Mumtaz Mahal were 100% Persian/Iranian and muslim. they used Persian muslim architects and the jewels and gold used to decorate the building was plundered by their armies. the only role local Indians played was as slaves who were forced to build this structure at the end of a sword and the millions who suffered for it's construction of what was a vanity project for an evil invader.
https://saltpepper.medium.com/cost-of-t ... 89c3f39503



cyberdora
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30 Apr 2025, 5:43 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Even if within the largest settlements there was no evidence of an elite that doesn't mean people living on the periphery would have lived in the same sort of housing as the people at it's core.


Wrong. Mohenjo-daro was a remarkably large city for its time, covering an estimated 300 hectares (741 acres) and housed a population of around 40,000 people.



funeralxempire
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30 Apr 2025, 5:46 pm

cyberdora wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Even if within the largest settlements there was no evidence of an elite that doesn't mean people living on the periphery would have lived in the same sort of housing as the people at it's core.


Wrong. Mohenjo-daro was a remarkably large city for its time, covering an estimated 300 hectares (741 acres) and housed a population of around 40,000 people.


You don't think they would have engaged in trade and commerce with people who lived beyond the boundaries of the settlement (aka the periphery)? :scratch:


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Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


cyberdora
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30 Apr 2025, 5:52 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
You don't think they would have engaged in trade and commerce with people who lived beyond the boundaries of the settlement (aka the periphery)? :scratch:


You assume there was a periphery. From what was found, everyone lived inside cities. 40,000 makes it larger than anything in Sumer or Egypt at the same time.



funeralxempire
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30 Apr 2025, 5:54 pm

Also, if you don't count the Taj Mahal as an example of great architectual projects existing in India prior to Europeans (I guess the Mughals are European now...):

Image

But, ultimately this entire tangent is just an attempt at distracting from the point.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


funeralxempire
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30 Apr 2025, 5:55 pm

cyberdora wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
You don't think they would have engaged in trade and commerce with people who lived beyond the boundaries of the settlement (aka the periphery)? :scratch:


You assume there was a periphery. From what was found, everyone lived inside cities. 40,000 makes it larger than anything in Sumer or Egypt at the same time.


I assume there was a periphery because there's always a periphery unless your city covers the entire planet.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


cyberdora
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01 May 2025, 12:47 am

funeralxempire wrote:
I assume there was a perphery because there's always a periphery unless your city covers the entire planet.


I assumed were projecting the typical European feudal model
Castle/moat for the Lord, aristocrats and army
periphery of thatched huts for the peasants

there is no evidence of this in the IVC - cities clearly housed all with no evidence of an elite.