NVLD - bad, misleading, inadequate name

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I would say that in truly non-autistic NVLD social awkwardness would be only due to impairment in spatial skills (due to spatial learning disability), but I conclude that most cases classified as NVLD without autism spectrum disorder are a kind of autism too (which often did not met DSM-V criteria and has other detailed profile than "standard" ASD regardless of its level and FSIQ) because their social ineptitude and weirdness goes beyond mere problems associated with spatial skills deficit.

Autism is social-behavioral developmental disorder with difference in needs, feeling and thinking and the term NVLD is mostly misused in my opinion to describe a genuine kind of pervasive developmental disorder, not just a specific learning disorder. A person with non-autistic nonverbal learning disorder (which should be renamed to something like "spatial learning disability" or "developmental visual-spatial disorder") just have deficient visual-spatial skills without distinct profile of feeling, thoughts and needs.

Fritz V. - pseudonym of the boy who was described as the first case of "autistic psychopathy" by Hans Asperger - started to talk before first birthday and started to walk some months later, what is described in English WIkipedia article "History of Asperger syndrome", so Fritz V. talked before walked as had clearly "odd", "eccentric", "weird" behaviors in childhood. People with Fritz V.-like socio-emotional-behavioral-cognitive profiles tend to have smaller or larger visual-spatial skills problem and smaller or larger clumsiness, but the core atypicality in their cases is what was named "autistic psychopathy" by Hans Asperger and it is primarily socio-emotional-behavioral divergence. There are interesting articles on https://paulcooijmans.com/asperger site, like "Straight talk about Asperger syndrome" and "Asperger's 1944 article summarized" which suggest the differences between "classic" ("Kannerian") autism and a nonclassic "Aspergerian" kind of autism (which is in very significant part of its cases clearly mislabelled as a (nonverbal) learning disorder while it is a kind of autistic disability, not (mere) spatial learning disability). I think that most cases of "Aspergerian" autism do not present with such a severe disruptive behaviors as Fritz V. presented in his in childhood and that this kind of autism can be present in girls and women too despite the fact that Hans Asperger did not diagnosed girls and women.

I still think autistic people who are articulate should be changed to Social Communication Sensory Disorder. People like me are too social to be on the spectrum but too socially awkward to not be on the spectrum. I mean how many autistic people would rather be chatting to their co-workers than working? How many autistic people find hyperfocus difficult even on their own interests? How many autistic people find it difficult to memorise facts even if it's about their own interests? How many autistic people find it naturally easy in a romantic relationship with an NT partner? How many autistic people are interested in gossip and people? How many autistic people are so communicative and verbal during a meltdown and really desire comfort from others? How many autistic people don't mind being touched no matter what mood they're in? How many autistic people can very easily express their feelings? How many autistic people, with anxiety disorder as well, don't feel the need to flap or rock? How many autistic children don't unimaginatively line toys up? I could go on.

The answer to all those is "not many", and I lack all of those symptoms. I know everyone on the spectrum are different and everything but if we don't draw the line somewhere then everyone in the world could be on the spectrum one way or another. So for us atypical Aspies we need a separate label. All I am is quirky, emotional, nervous, hyperactive, impulsive, dense, and awkward. The word "autism" and it's sh***y Greek meaning ("self") doesn't really describe those.
Yes I know I have ADHD and anxiety, but I've never been sure about AS, despite being diagnosed. But I seemed Aspie in adolescence, as I was socially isolated and innocent and babyish, and I have a good autobiographical memory - I've written memoirs about several years of my life that are quite accurate, like when my relatives read them they're impressed at how my books take them back to that time and what happened.

But if you read (red) my books you probably wouldn't really guess that I was on the spectrum, except for my fear of sudden loud noises and how I got treated by people (often running into bullies in my life). But my books don't really revolve around a fixed interest, the interest I talk about mostly in my books is other people and sexual crushes, as that seems to be my main focus in life. Most memoirs written by Aspies would typically involve their favourite interest such as trains or history or music or anime.

I also found my subjects of conversation varies, it's never on one fixed subject but a whole load of different things. I'm one of those people you can talk about anything to and I'm a good listener, despite having ADHD.

Yet I don't seem to make friends that well. So that must be either because I never drink alcohol, or because there's something odd about me that nobody (not even me) can quite put their finger on. I've often been excluded from peer groups, usually because they know I don't drink so they seem to view me as some sort of alien, I don't know.

If people like you would have been no considered autistic or having a pervasive developmental disorder, but just a specific developmental disorder or mixed specific developmental disorders, the help and support could be much smaller and the life of such people could be considerably harder because of that because of larger demands and requirements putted on them.

PDD/ASD comorbid with ADHD can easily make interests more numerous due to crave of novelty and proneness to boredom in ADHD. Some people with PDD/ASD have high IQ, are active-but-odd and may have more or less extroverted character. It does not mean that they have just specific developmental differences instead of pervasive developmental difference.

I would say that the abbreviation NVLD (nonverbal learning disability or nonverbal learning disorder), when used during last decades, in my opinion should means two different things:

- a kind of not recognised officially, specific, requiring other way of support in many areas in comparison to "Kannerian" autism profile of autism (a pervasive developmental disorder, a full-right kind of autism requiring support and recognition) which is often considered too mild or with too few symptoms to be diagnosed with ASD, usually associated with having markedly higher VIQ than PIQ and lower "strikingness" of the profile of symptoms (for example, milder sensory issues, better theory of mind, being less rigid and less inflexible), but not necessarily low support needs, in which main issues are generally social and behavioral, not visual-spatial,
- developmental visual-spatial disorder (DVSD) which is not autism per se and is usually present with lesser or greater severity with individuals with autism who have NVLD profile (which tends to have low "strikingness" of symptoms by greater dissimilarities with cases of "Kannerian" autism like cases of Donald Triplett and Temple Grandin), it is associated for example with impairment in reading maps, charts, clocks, somewhat often quite large clumsiness due to spatial-motor or (and) visual-spatial deficits and developmental visual-spatial disorder is usually NOT a part of "Kannerian" autistic profile which has strengths in visual-spatial skills.

I wonder if I have ASD with NVLD, NVLD without ASD or ASD without NVLD or maybe even no ASD and no NVLD. NVLD should just be considered developmental visual-spatial disorder (DVSD). I have no "technical" skills. I have "overdeveloped" verbal skills in comparison to my visual-spatial skills. I do not have photographical memory. I may often miss details and have poor concentration. Maybe I have cognitive disengagement syndrome rather than developmental visual-spatial disorder?

I did not bother about nonverbal communication as a child too much. I did not think about proper eye contact. I may have combined-type ADHD. I am poor in technical skills also due to poor strength and poor physical endurance.

Proposed criteria of NVLD (developmental visual-spatial disorder): https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https% ... ab521c619e.

Updated official NVLD diagnostic criteria for the DSM: thoughts?: https://www.reddit.com/r/NVLD/comments/ ... a_for_the/.

Autism with NVLD is something other than NVLD alone and something other than "normal" autism, but I suppose that it may have different etiology than autism alone and NVLD alone. I had VIQ 126 and PIQ 104, which is a large difference. But I did well in Block Design and Coding, as good as in three subscales from verbal part (Comprehension, Similarities, Vocabulary) and my PIQ was lower because of Picture Completion, Object Assembly and Picture Arrangement. My VIQ was heightened by Arithmetics and Information and lowered by Digit Span. Only Perceptual-Organizational Index was lower in my case while Working Memory Index and Processing Speed Index were above-average, like Verbal Comprehension Index.

^ Just going by your many comments;it's a complicated subject . I used to think my non-verbal intelligence was uniformly poor. Now I see it as being a mixed bag, ability wise.
I'm far better at pattern recognition than block design, mental rotation, and visual puzzles. I don't think having a very poor visual memory helps with the block design etc.

Visual crowding is also an issue . I don't do well when it to comes to questions involving many shapes bunched close together. I'm not good at constructing things. I've never been able to do jigsaws.

I've always had social problems. Without meaning to I seem to put people off. My social communication was assessed as being at classical autism level. Even before the falls I had I'd given up trying to expand my very small social network. There'd been too many bad,failed, attempts at doing so.

I think that in developmental visual-spatial disorder social awkwardness and social problems should be relatively small, especially in comparison to autism level 2 or 3. NVLD appears to be not treated like a serious issue, but ASD level 1 appears to be treated like somewhat serious issue, more serious than even a significant learning disability... Poor NVLDers I have no occupational life, I think that I never have had a close friends (which is not a large issue for me) and I have never been in a romantic relationship (which can be painful mentally). I have never drove a car and, of course, I have no driving licence.

I have ASD and NVLD. I think NVLD has hindered my life far more than ASD has. Driving is a real struggle for me, and one of my hobbies, martial arts, is very difficult to perform in because of my memory recall deficits and struggles with visual-spatial processing. I am extremely good at one thing — English grammar — but my NVLD makes me struggle at many other aspects of learning and working. I have a remote proofreading job, but I don't want to do this forever; I want to be a copy editor for a news publication. Unfortunately, my lack of driving skills makes it very difficult to have an on-site job. I feel somewhat trapped because of this condition, and any hobbies that I try to pursue I end up doing poorly in because they require some type of skill that my NVLD inhibits.

"NVLD" may be conceptualized as "developmental right hemisphere dysfunction" (DRHD), but I would say that DRHD is a kind of autism (other than Temple Grandin-type autism) plus developmental visual-spatial disorder.

Noise and lights in schools or supermarkets do not bother me. For many autistics they are nightmare. I have no high-sensory autism, but odd-eccentric autism. I use mostly verbal thinking and my sensory issues are mild to moderate, not severe to profound. High-sensory autism appears to be associated with cognitive and neurological issues while odd-eccentric autism appears to be associated with schizophrenia-spectrum disorders and personality disorders. High-sensory autism is neuroatypical while odd-eccentric autism is rather psychoatypical than neuroatypical.

It is interesting why there are quite many people diagnosed with Asperger syndrome according to ICD-10 or DSM-IV who have much higher VIQ than PIQ (at least 15 - 20 points), who present with significant social ineptitude and special interests, peculiar customs or rituals, some stimming and a bit of sensory issues despite not having "Temple Grandin profile", who had no speech delay and had no developmental delay and many of them are predominantly verbal thinkers. I suppose that many of these individuals may be surprisingly good in arithmetic in comparison to many NLDers (and Arithmetic is in VIQ part, not in PIQ part, so very good Arithmetic heightens VIQ). I think that this disorder is not the same as pure NLD and not the same as pure ASD (ASD without NLD), I would say it "combined autistic-eneldic disorder" (CAED) which is a hybrid of autistic symptoms and eneldic symptoms, at least superficially analogous to ADHD combined type (where there are also ADHD inattentive type and ADHD hyperactive-impulsive type). You do not have to have as much inattentive symptoms themselves and as much hyperactive-impulsive symptoms themselves as in ADHD-I or ADHD-HI to be diagnosed with ADHD-C, you can have just 3+ symptoms in inattention with 3+ symptoms in hyperactivity-impulsivity at the same time to be diagnosed with ADHD-C without having at least 6 of 9 symptoms in a single of two scales.

I would say that C. Subtype: Predominant Deficiency in Social Perception is just misnamed autism. I read about some Aspies (mostly girls and women) who wrote a lot of fictional stories and who were smart since childhood who could be easily misdiagnosed as non-autistic because of misuse of the term "nonverbal learning disorder". "Social perception deficit" is common in autism and is not a feature of developmental visual-spatial disorder.

I suppose that there may be two main types of Aspies (autistics without intellectual disability and with mild or no functional language impairment): "social-emotional learning and perception deficit" subtype with marked sensory issues and "schizoid-schizotypal-personality" subtype with smaller sensory issues but which can be associated with even worse functioning in adulthood than the former subtype. The first type is more "sensory" and the second type is more "psychological".

I would say that everyone with NVLD is autistic, but not everyone with DVSD has NVLD. In NVLD social and executive functioning issues would be as important as visual-spatial weakness in this understanding of NVLD in which NVLD is a full-right kind of autism even without meeting DSM-V criteria (for example due to "too good" social skills or "too typical sensory functioning" or "lack of RRBIs"). In developmental visual-spatial disorder problems with nonverbal communications or (and) social skills might be absent while in NVLD they are a core feature.

What is history of persons with developmental right hemisphere dysfunction? Are they considered "weirdos"? How do they deal with occupational life?

Problems with organizing thoughts are for me sign of a kind of autism and pervasive developmental disorder, not a learning disorder. Autism has core atypicality in social-behavioral area and impacts general functioning, it is pervasive developmental atypicality, not a learning disorder. PDD is not a learning style or academic problem - it comes with atypical pattern of needs, thinking and feeling. A person with PDD can have even extremely high verbal IQ. PDD has not to mean speech or language problems. I think that some PDDs can belong to schizophrenia spectrum or be a psychotic spectrum disorder. PDD is associated with "weirdness", social awkwardness and quirky behaviors are frequently found in PDDs. Not all PDDs have sensory hypersensitivity or sensory hyposensitivity. PDDs are not learning disorders, they are "nonnormienesses". PDD is mostly pretty bad for occupational career. Not all PDDs are similar to childhood autism occurring in Donald Triplett or Temple Grandin. It is bad and harmful to look at PDDs by the lenses od Kannerian autism. PDD can be co-morbid with severe personality disorder. Intelligence itself it not the main factor in generał functioning in PDD - recognition, enviromnent, support and symptoms in details are more important for overall functioning of a person than full scale IQ or functional language level. PDDs without low IQ and with (at least superficially) normal functional language can be especially cunning in causing disability, especially in adolescents and adults.

It is a bit of a silly name, because whenever I hear of non-verbal learning disorder I always think it means they're non-verbal, even though it means the opposite. So, I could say I'm a non-verbal autistic, because I'm verbal.

I am afraid that in fact I have NVLD without ASD instead of autism and I received great help unjustly due to pervasive developmental disorder while I might in fact have specific developmental disorder associated with nonverbal learning instead of autism. I rather do not have alexithymia. I had significant verbal-nonverbal split in Wechsler test. I had poor results in Benton test in which I made more errors than the norm for my age on 2016 which was associated with short-term visual memory. My special interests are varied and easily switchable between them. I had problems with mental rotation in childhood, even in 2D. I was very poor in "technical" part of Physics in school which were associated, for example, with electricity and mechanics.

I have executive functioning problems, difficulty with forming essays, stories and projects, difficulty with organization of thinking and starting activities. My poorest subscale in verbal part of Wechsler IQ test was Digit Span which was lower than Block Design and Coding from performance part of this text by three or two "large" points. I had relatively poor results in Digit Span test due to problems with repeating digits backwards.

I do not have large sensitivity to sounds, like vacuum cleaners or school bells. I have no issues with artificial lights and I, hopefully, do not use glasses (associated with eye or visual sensitivity issues) at all. Clothing tags do not bother me. I do not experience sensory overloads, shutdowns and meltdowns or at least I think so despite I am overwhelmed by demands of adult life and I life "like a child" despite my age.

I have serious problems with repeating sequences of movements which I saw, such as excercises. I learned how to tie the shoelaces much later than I learned how to ride a bike without attached small wheels. I learn to tie shoelaces when I was about 8 years old while I rode the bike without small wheels before 6th birthday, maybe even before 5th birthday. I have no dysgraphia and I have no dyscalculia, but I am not good in "technical" issues like repairing or working with machines like cars. I have never tried to get driving licence and I do not remember driving a car in my life myself despite being 33 years old.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20251 ... ility.aspx


https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12489661/