Writing issues, help needed.

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Hi all,
It's been a long time since I've been here. I need some advice or just your thoughts/opinions or own experience.

I had to pick my 12 year old up early from school yesterday for an appointment. I was in his class waiting for him (he's in grade 6). He was finishing off some writing, it was taking him a long long time to write out just a couple of words (this is not new to me I know his writing is labored), he also kept stopping to stretch his hand and was moaning and ouching whilst doing it.
My son avoids writing as often as he can, not only is the actual task of writing painful he has great difficulties getting his thoughts out of his head and on to paper. He has tons of great ideas and stories that he can verbally tell me about, but when I ask him to put them on paper, he can't.
We are in Melbourne Australia, so we have just gone back to school after more than a months holiday. During the holidays, I tried getting him to type his thoughts out. He can't touch type and school have never encouraged this, I have tried. I had to get him started with his writing, by asking specific questions and doing the bulk of the typing.
His thoughts and ideas are all over the place, it took me a long time just getting across to him that if he types his ideas down, he can copy and paste them in the right order later. He had no idea where to start and one sentence would then lead to a whole new tangent.
I've always known writing was difficult for him, but I'm now thinking it's even more difficult than what I imagined. The hard part I think in trying to get him help or accommodations is going to get others to believe me becuase, my son loves to draw cartoons. Very simple black and white (very messy) cartoons, with very simple script. He could happily spend an entire day at school doing one A4 page of cartoons, yet it could take him several days just to get one paragraph of writing from him. Any ideas or suggestions as to the best way to tackle this problem?

For your own info: My son is 12 dx'd aspergers, adhd, ocd, gad, mild tourette's. (the additional 4 dx's were clinically proven to go above and beyond normal aspergers/autism)

the physical issues with writing isnt uncommon with autism, often its caused by low muscle tone, aka hypotonia. it can result in painful and messy writing. OT (occupational therapy) is usually used to help with that. here in the states, kids with autism often get OT through special education from the local school district, im not sure how its handled in australia. my youngest gets OT for this issue still, my 14 yr old is allowed to use a computer for written assignments, and my SO just has really messy handwriting =)

ive read or heard of the issues with written language as well, altho i am not sure what its called. aphasia perhaps? thats probably in the realm of a speech and language pathologist. hopefully someone experienced with this will chime in.

if OT and ST are both handled at the school level in australia, it seems that would be the best place to start. like i said, i dont know how things are handled there, but here for the same concerns we would request OT and ST evaluations through the local school district (or re-evaluation for these specific issues if they have already done OT and ST evals).

I'm obviously in the wrong country when it comes to autism spectrum issues.
I can't even get my son an aide, apparently he isn't "bad enough", school have tried but the ed dept said no!
He was seeing an OT threw our local hospital, she recommended the use of a computer, but the school won't do this. The OT had to work threw me because my son would become extremely anxious working with her, services with the OT have now dwindled to nothing.
School were having my son see their speech therapist on and off last year but I don't believe she was working with him on this problem it was mostly social stuff. Even then she (speech therapist) kept telling my son he was "fine", so he would get angry with me for making him see her. I explained to this woman that in regards to the social stuff, yes my son can tell you the right/acceptable things to say and do in a social context, but he doesn't perform this way in real life.
It's all just so frustrating.

Another poster offered this software that I plan to buy at some point: http://www.inspiration.com/Inspiration

DS's therapist also suggested a couple of programs to help with keyboarding that are kind of like the shortcuts you use to text.

I just received my daughter's AS diagnosis this past month and, among other htings she has a learning diability in writing - it sounds like the same issues your son is having. We are in the states and her school IEP just became more aggressive once this was pinpointed as a problem. she has the same coordinaton and strength issues as well as a disconnect in thinking and writing simultaneously.

I wish I knew what to suggest to inspire the school to get more involved. My daughter is 8, in the 3rd grade. Writing has stepped up considerably this year. One strategy we use at home for writing projects - I will let her dictate her paragraph to me, I write it out then let her copy it. When she's not trying to do both at the same time - her writing improves considerably. Her thoughts are always there - she just has trouble getting them on paper. Her OT is trying to implement typing in the classroom for tests, etc. and the Special Ed director of the district is working to eliminate standardized testing altogether for the kids who don't fit the mold. In her papaphrased words 'the purpose of a test is to determine if a child has learned the information. If a child can dictate the correct answers, it should count just as much as one who can write them for themselves.' They have already told me that she doesn't even need to copy the words in her homework... it is perfectly fine if she just dictates it and we leave it at that. She thinks that making challenged kids do double the work is only further discouraging them when the goal is to simply help them learn better - not make court scribes out of them.

I know the anxiety and feelings of failure my daughter experiences because of her problems in writing are causing her to withdraw a bit more. Hopefully, some of these strategies will help you. As we learn more, I'll try and post it here.

Writing has been THE issue for my AS son with schooling. The process we've used as been more or less as follows:

In elementary school he mostly dictated. He wrote short assignments and started learning to type, but until age 10 or so the hands are not really developmentally ready to type properly, so you cannot expect it to take off. Meanwhile, he received OT that worked on muscle strength and control, etc. Overall, though, the emphasis was to get him to compose the thoughts and transfer them without worrying about how the physical aspect. He got very good at sorting a 5 paragraph essay in his head and telling someone else how to write it!

In 6th grade we still had permission to dictate, but were encouraged to cut that back. We did a lot of you type, I type, and me editing. He worked with OT exclusively on developing touch type skills, and was given an alphasmart to use at school. He learned to type in a shorthand of his own making, really, because we told him to focus on the transfer of thought, not the spelling or grammar. He was still very hesitant to flush out his written work, however, and often did not understand what the teacher was looking for. So, we spent a lot of time brainstorming together. I devoted every night that year to helping him with his homework, and read every book he read so I could help him understand the questions and develop answers. Huge investment in helping him with his homework but, I have to say, it paid off.

Seventh grade they graduated him from OT saying he had achieved the required typing speed. Still in his own shorthand, but that is the bright line. Since he was assigned to an academic support class, we arranged for that class time to be his edit time. He would go through the writing he generated on the alphasmart and go through the tedious process of turning it into proper English, and his teacher would highlight errors in the print out and he'd go back through more rounds of corrections. That was the assignment for his class, every single day. Tedious as all get up, but since it was at school and this was the goal of the class, he had no problem with it. The academic support teacher coordinated with his English, history and science teachers about which assignments to edit and what the time frames were. I moved entirely out of the homework business as a result. Happy mommy, but only because he was ready for it and this was the logical next step.

8th grade and he's totally keyboard based, independently writing, editing and printing. We helped with proofing a lot earlier in the year, but not as often now. I can't begin to say what a relief it's been to see two solid years of incredible hard work pay off. I am super proud of him. He dug in because he knew it was important to his future academic success, and we were fortunate to get a team at the school that understood and agreed with the goal.

As for drawing and how it relates to writing ... it doesn't. Writing is a multitask process, and uses different parts of the brain from drawing. Plus, look at the type of drawing your child does. We like to say our son is an amazing draft artist. His sense of proportion and detail is amazing. But he can't do fine shading or draw pretty little smooth lines; his art looks nothing like other kids his age, and it's because of the handicap in his joints.

Thanks for the fantastic replies everyone.
I've spoken with my son's school and some of the suggestions flying around at the moment (by the school, yay) are perhaps he can type more, and perhaps he could use a dicta phone.
All good suggestions. I told my son about these suggestions after school yesterday and he was happy.
I spoke with the boy today about going out to buy a dicta phone and to look at some touch typing programs, he's not happy. He now tells me his writing is fine, he doesn't have an issue, he doesn't need these things. I am SO frustrated!! ! Hmm.
My older son heard the whole conversation and thinks, my youngest doesn't want these things because then he will have to do the work, either that or he doesn't want to leave the house at the moment. It could be both.

I've also been looking at a program called "Dragon Naturally Speaking" it's a speech to text program which sounds fantastic, but I'm now not so sure what to do. I don't want to waste money buying stuff if he isn't going to use it.

I do know my son is very good at getting me to do his thinking for him when I'm taking dictation...he's perfectly capable of organizing his own thoughts, but he'd rather have someone do it for him. It's really hard not to ask leading questions when you're taking down a child's assignment. I know he can do it on his own because I've seen stories he wrote while at school, where nobody dictates - he can write pretty well as long as he can draw pictures, too (he can write and illustrate a cartoon like nobody's business.) I think the drawing gives his muscles a break somehow. You can still see that he's struggling with the pencil - there's a LOT of pressure.

I wonder if your son might be objecting to having something that makes him stand out - especially if nobody else is using a dictophone. I'm hoping the netbook we have for our son won't be viewed that way.

Speech to text programs were brought up several times for my son and I always rejected them as simply, "not yet." If having someone be that fully dependent upon technology can be avoided, it should be avoided. This is something, in my opinion, for further down the road. You've only just started, really. Wonderful to know you have that option if other roads don't work, of course.

I am sure it all seems a bit daunting to your son right now. It's going to take time for him to buy into the need to write, and to learn to believe he can make keyboarding work for him. We were discussing this whole issue for my son starting in second grade, and he didn't dig in (or really get asked to dig in) until 6th grade. Lots of tears and fighting and emotional swings between then and now, but we DO have success with keyboarding at this point in time and independence in creating written work. It takes time, and it may be more difficult given that your son is older while first seriously confronting the issue. Plus, it does seem there are content issue hurdles to get past, as well, and of course he's afraid to face them. It takes hard work, no one should sugar coat that.

My daughter is very resistant to changes to her school routine. Every school year, it's a rough few first weeks until she settles into her new routine. Once she is, it is an epic battle to make any sort of changes. She is one of those kids who is actually very compliant with authority - so rigid that her father and I cannot suggest alternates ways to do homework at home becasue 'that's not the way Mr. so'n'so said to do it.'

My daughter is very aware that her writing is different from all the other kids, she has many avoidance techniques under her belt and she will also try to manipulate the dication process. No kid wants to be different - and interventions just emphasis how different they are. All I can offer is stand firm with a touch of humor at the surface at all times. I have always needed to use redirection for my daughter's issues. She is also ADD so we only get a solid 10-15 minutes of focus from her at a time. We tend to break up writing homework - half now - half after math homework is done. Or, I'll even have her do it the next morning before school.

We aren't ready for speech-to-text programs yet. She has fairly intensive OT to address the mechanics of her writing issues but that alone will not address her writing disability. She is perfectly capable of organizing her thoughts - brilliantly at times - but when trying to think and write simultaneously both skills breakdown.

Excellent news that the school is responding to suggestions! It's ashame that Australia doesn't have a more organized in school support system like our IEP process here in the states. I would like to believe that all educators are actually there to help ALL students learn to their best potential. Keep appealling to that quality in your son's school!

For my son it's very painful to watch him write. We had a psychoed done in Grade 5 (he's now in Gr. 7) and learned that there was several reasons for troubles.

1. Visual Processing speed issues - He can't put down from his head to paper as it takes him a while to clearly say what he means.
2. Expressive Writing - He did not fair well in that area well. His vocabulary is quite limited in comparison to someone his age.
3. Verbal memory (Short Term) - Seems to come out in what he's saying. He pauses and repeats himself a lot which shows.

We start using a computer in Grade 8 hopefully, he's getting used to the multiple classes and teachers this year. I scribe for him and help him piece it together. To help him with with the creative writing where they give him a list of words and we group them by similarity and then we talk and I scribe. I tried the Voice to Text but I didn't really like it.

He types really well for his age and writing isn't actually messy just really slow for him.

Just my story that I wanted to share.

Was he taught how to do an outline or how to draw a mindmap? If he can use a computer freemind might be helpful, but if he doesn't want to carry a laptop around school it would be better to just show him how to draw one.

My son has trouble with writing (he's 4). He just got approved for OT because of this writing. His teacher suggested that I buy him pencil grips, they use them at school. They help him hold the pencil because he has trouble gasping the pencil. Another problem we are having is he doesn't have a dominant hand. He seems to be a lefty but then he does things with his right. My daughter was the same way til she was 3 years old.

We have been using the pencil grips at home and Ive seen some changes in the way he holds the pencil. I tried them myself and they are very comfortable. They might help your son, he too might find them comfortable. Here is a link to a site www.thepencilgrip.com

I actually was able to buy some on ebay. Hope they help.

Thanks Michelle, we have done the pencil grips. They only help a tiny bit.

By the way, I feel like I'm chatting to myself lol.
My real name is Michelle and I am a 1970 baby

lol, thats funny. I find so many people with the name Michelle. I went to school with 7 girls named Michelle. I also have a daughter who is 22 years old, so we have lots in common.