Will we ever get it back?

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Here's another thing that's hard not to think about. When I look through a lot of these posts, see all the ideological fighting, see all the battles brought on by gender stereotypes and all that, I really think back to a time when we were probably all 6, 7, maybe 8 years old, a time when we could actually *feel* love a lot better - back when none of this was up in our realities or headspaces. I don't know if its just me who feels like they've been pulled from having a very rich degree of interpersonal feeling to being as emotionally dry as a meth addict by what I've been through in life, we're all very different so its hard to say who this applies to and who it doesn't. The obvious is that the world and the way it works in general has had the biggest part in breaking a lot of us down, turning us into cynics, making us feel like it was all back then and like it would never return again. Its hard not to feel that way untill you've been down that path to the full degree, been emotionally hardened, and almost gained enough beating to have a good degree of numbness to it. Then something kinda tricky happens that you hadn't anticipated - you remember how your parents loved you, if your lucky enough you still see them showing just how much they care though more in little ways since you've become an adult, you even see it on certain levels in what friendships you have (if you are blessed to have those as well).

When you look at it that way, its really saddening to see that we're stuck looking at the whole idea of romantic relationships through the lense of cynicism as much as we do. Even more sadly though there is just cause, the world pulls a lot of sh-- tricks on a lot of good people, makes them feel that everyone's the same, and makes them feel like there's 0 hope. Hate to sound like a hippy or anything but when you look at it, human emotions are worth so much - especially those which give meaning to life itself. They say that when your 18 or 20 you're about as far from your true self as you will ever be in your lifetime, that the rest of your life is trying to merge that true unscarred self with the socially constructed self and that really comming into adulthood is bringing all those feelings you had when you were 6, 7, and 8 and being able to bring them foreward into the now in a way thats reconciled with the realities at hand. It's like when you get yourself to where you can still stay as solid as you need to be and yet go back to those feelings and fully experience them and really live on those two levels simultaneously without having your life self-training undone its like that's where you've really come full circle and are ready to actually start living.

Lol, again, I don't know how relevent this is to everyone in general but its something I've had coming to me a bit more at a time. It makes me wonder though when I look at the whole game people play, all the tricks and stunts needed to create 'attraction', we really quite voluntarily put ourselves through the blender over this stuff and as much as I keep hearing it all only works one way, the more I see people trying to play *legit* love off as more of an illusion than anything, its all really starting to trip my bullsh-- meter. Isn't it true that the further we push ourselves away from who we truely are at essence that the less happy we are even if we get all the results? Isn't radiating the fact that you can feel love touching enough in and of itself? Yeah you want to have things going for yourself just for the sake of doing what makes you happy but I can't help but wonder if the rest of going above and beyond for flare is just the shallowness of the 20's, something where the second you feel yourself moving ahead of it you get stepped on and pulled back in the fray because you were losing your edge so to speak.
I don't know, I guess I just wish we saw the better half of things and our humanity showing through in this forum more. Doubt that's really going to phase things too much but still, I'm a bit of a believer that if you have a feeling that you want to share with the world and you think it would do good if it was circulating out there the best thing you can do is commit it to some medium - whether that's music, words, or whatever.

That said I'm out. Just chew this one over a bit and throw your thoughts down in relation to this if you can relate.

thanks for the post

What kind of fighting is that?

You described that beautifully. The only way I could have expressed it is as "that thing I'm trying to get back". I remember when everything was just easy, fun and nothing to worry about. Now I feel strange if I find myself totaly relaxed and content or if I totaly trust a person. I think maybe we could achieve this again but it would require social changes.

The fact that you recognise it means it's still there and holds an important place within you. So there's something to take comfort in.

What could it be?

Someone told me once, "Before you can give up your ego, you have to have ego to give up."

The Christians put it this way, (loosely) "Before you can (re)enter the kingdom of heaven, you must become again as little children. (regain your innocence)"

We're born in what we call a state of innocence. We see the world as it is, without judgment, without filters. We begin to become self-aware. The ego begins to develop. We realize that we can be hurt and develop ego-defense mechanisms. We begin to perceive the world through the filters of our experience. Then, later in life, if we're lucky, we start to suspect that maybe things are not what they appear to be, maybe there's some illusion going on. We begin to experience disillusionment. (dis-illusion-ment) We begin to realize that the cars and the clothes and the beautiful spouse and prestigious job and all the other stuff that we've built our "self" around is worthless. Well not worthless, but worth only what it's worth. In advanced stages of development, we begin to see that even the "self" is an illusion, a mental construct. And when there's no longer anyone there, there's no one to be hurt, only the joy of one-ness. Jung called the end of this process the instinct for spiritual transformation. I don't know why some people experience the instinct earlier than others, but I've always been curious about that. Some aspies experience the instinct early, but so do some NTs. I think the NTs simply have the social sense the keep their mouths shut, so nobody notices they’re different.

So go ahead, build your “self” up. Store up those treasures that rot and corrupt. Fulfill your desires. Fight your battles and love your lovers. Experience glorious victories or crash and burn spectacularly. But remember, like that body you live in, it’s all temporary. We’re going to recycle it when you’re through with it. It’ll all be all right.

PS: "At first, the mountain is just a mountain, then the mountain is not a mountain, then the mountain is just a mountain again."

Last edited by MrMark on 02 Aug 2006, 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

I can relate to a lot of what you say, particularly in regards to not being able to feel emotion anymore because of life experiences. But I don't believe I've become cynical over the years. I'm a realist. Everyone is just too naive or stupid to see.

i think we have a title track to this thread Enigma - Return to Innocence

Im only 16 and i always look back upon my earlier years, especially the intermediate ones, as the best years ive had... and wish i could replay them properly...

Hahhaha, ya know? I can relate to that as well. Sometimes I've admittedly gone overboard in negative expectations about the outside world but like a lot of people it's been all about defense and keeping myself from getting let down by things.

I've been cynical for a long time, and still am. I guess it stems from getting rejected at every step of the way since the start of puberty. So now, I believe that the concept of true love is a crock: it's simply a matter of finding the perfect balance of what you want and what you can get. Throughout the course of many years, I've become very hardened and emotionless. For as long as I can remember, I never had a crush. This got me through not having a girlfriend quite well. At the same time, I learned to fake romance when the need might arise. So recently, I've been on a few dates with the same girl. I surprised myself a lot by how easy it was for me to show affection. And the feelings I had for her can be easy described as a rudimentary crush. Needless to say, it's a completely uncharted territory, and I'm utterly confused. I can see how Columbus felt when he first landed in the West Indies.

Now I'm in a state of utter confusion. I've become so used to being very dry and unemotional, that I've never considered for a second how nice it all can feel. So although she dumped me, I'm hoping to meet another girl whose company I'll enjoy.

One questions remains: where did all those feelings come from, anyway? Did they arise because I truly liked her? Or did they arise because of the "relationship things" she's given me, like hugs, kisses, flirty touching, fun conversations, etc?

That is so true! It is true because you need to retain your innocence in order to believe in Christianity. Whereas if you are not naive, then you realize that religion is a scam, and thus your hopes of eternal bliss in Heaven go up in smoke. So I completely agree that Christianity is for those with their childhood innocence intact.

Well, I think perhaps you've misinterpreted what I said.

I think this is a question many of us ask ourselves. Even when doing something that seems at first glance virtuous and altruistic, we wonder whether we're really acting out of purely selfish reasons. When we become cynical, we bring those beliefs to our way of perceiving ourselves just as much as to our perceptions of everyone else.

So it is not just a defence mechanism as you say tech, but a whole way of looking at humanity.

That's the sort of philosophical outlook I've had as of late. But it can be kind of a depressing one if you really think about it. I feel as though just about everything I do is more or less pointless in the long run and my greatest goals in life are really about as meaningless as wanting to make millions of dollars in order to just sit around and play video games all day.

See, I am very cynical about love and relationships because the love humans have for each other can be corrupted. Really, people don't love each other, but an image of their beloved that they have created in their minds. If the "thing itself" (as Plato would have said it) differs from its "imitation," then can love really exist between two human beings that is not based on mental imitations of something? After all, most relationships are based around some form of mental manipulation by both parties (which is why we Aspies generally have a hard time with them; it's hard for us to sense the psychological "games" going on in those kinds of interactions). I doubt it is really possible to know someone's mind and soul and love it when one is engaged in flirtation... or anything else.

I could rant forever about this, but I'll just limit my comment to this much. I will add, though, that ever since I can remember, I've had some kind of psychological fascination with the concept of "true love," which is why I've made logical inquiries into such a thing. Were I to write a treatise on the subject, my conclusion most likely be that "true love" can only exist between a person and God, however God would manifest Itself (and there, we're stepping outside the bounds of reason into faith, so the inquiry must end at that point).

I love my boyfriend.

It can also be very uplifting. It depends on what you do with it. Focusing on the finite “me” can easily become as meaningless as video games. Focusing on the infinite “us” can become as meaningful as the universe becoming conscious of itself. People don’t live in the world, but an image of the world they have created in their minds. (The true root of the problem.) Prefect beings experience perfect love. Imperfect humans experience imperfect love. Think of love as an action instead of a feeling. The feeling is just icing on the cake. Find one person and practice loving them. Think of it as a learning experience. Take what you learn and use it to learn how to love everybody. True (honest) love can exist can exist between true (honest) people. We must diligently work to reduce self-deception.