Perceptions of Butch Lesbians and Straight Men

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It was suggested that I start a new thread with a post I made in response to another thread. I probably don't need to recreate my whole post. Here's the relevant section of it:

Are there any other butch lesbians with Asperger's who find that, even within the lesbian community, they're not seen as being as butch as they perceive themselves to be? I identify as being so butch that it goes beyond gender expression for me. I actually feel more comfortable thinking of that as my gender identity, rather than either male or female. (I feel my female body is correct for me, though, so I don't wish it were male instead.) But even other lesbians don't always see me this way. Years ago, a lesbian friend told me she didn't think of me as being butch at all. Could it be that butch lesbians with Asperger's sometimes have the same trouble with how they are perceived by others that heterosexual men with Asperger's have?

This is an interesting question.

I am aware of why the aspie men I know don't present as highly masculine guys in my perception. It's their inability to take minor change-ups in the workplace in stride and their subsequent meltdowns and whining or sulking. I know that this is unfair, because unexpected change-ups undermine the many coping mechanisms these men have laborously put in place in their lives in order to function. But, gosh, if guys act like high school drama queens over common workplace stuff, they're not gunna seem masculine. Perception is more gut reaction than insight.

The men who meet inconveniences with relaxed ease and meet major adversity with vigor; yeah; that feels masculine to me. They're not angry or purturbed (much). They get over it quickly; they're strong, stable and flexible. It's how they behave and moreover; it shows in their gait, gestures & facial expressions. For me this perception of masculinity precludes physique. It's almost the same for me whether the guy's pumped up or old & bald with a paunch.

Since I am unaware of knowing any butch aspies, I can't say how I perceive them. But the butch women I know fall into two categories; some I perceive as quiet, determined and competant individuals. Others just seem angry to me. The former are attractive individuals to me; and yes, they seem their own special gender. They seem comfortable in their own skin. The angry ones seem uncomfortable.

MountainLaurel, thank you for responding.

I've had friendships with both men and women, but I don't relate to men the same way that other women do, because I don't seek them out as romantic partners. Consequently, I often have to rely on what the women say about the men to know what's going on. Here's an interesting note that I think might pertain to our discussion:

In the past, I've noticed that even the NT guys who seem most masculine to others have something in common that their wives and girlfriends mention from time to time. No matter how minor the illness, they all apparently act like they're terribly sick - at least when they're at home. I've heard women say their guys seem to believe that they are sicker than everyone else, even if they have the same little cold that everybody else has. The guys complain, make lots of groaning and other noises, and expect to be waited on, even when their wives or girlfriends are also sick with the same thing.

On the other hand, women, especially mothers, seem like they'd just about have to be crawling on the floor and dying before they make anything of being sick. They take care of everybody, and many of them have jobs outside the home, too, so they can't afford to be sick. If they do come down with something, they have to go on as if nothing were wrong at all. There's just no time to do otherwise.

I guess everybody does drama; it's just a question of when and where. If you do it in the way you're expected to, you fit your gender role - or, if you're gay, the image people have for your type of gender expression - and are accepted within your community as being what you claim to be. Otherwise, you don't fit, and you get judged and ridiculed - or simply dismissed.

This is not my experience (albeit, limited to my former husband, my two brothers and my deceased boyfriend, as they're the only ones I have at home experience with). They're stoic in illness; won't want to talk about it much; even to the point of denial sometimes. The day before my boyfriend died, was his day off work and he spent it reading on the couch. All he said was that he was unusually tired.

In my post, I was expressing how I perceive masculinity and why aspie men (the ones I can eventually identify) don't present to me as highly masculine. I don't know whether my perception of what's masculine is commonplace or whether it's fairly unique.


I don't know whether you are referring to the gay community or all communities in this sentence.

But just in case; I don't dismiss the aspie men in my workplace just because they don't fit my perception of masculine men (nor do any of my co-workers). They do their jobs well and are generally liked at work. I've never witnessed any ridicule and have only caught a few hints at judgement; which was aspie on aspie judgement (if it was judgement at all.)

Hey. I've never really claimed a certain level of 'butchness' for myself...but have done a number of things/behaviors that (at least in the company I keep and/or the society I live in) that would ordinarily be considered 'butch'. In the least, my actions have often been considered 'unfeminine'. It's created a great deal of confusion (that sometimes gets paraded as resentment or hostility) for/from OTHERS since my outward appearance (athletic-to-somewhat-slight build, blond features, youthful face, height appearing to be less that my actual 5'8", etc.) doesn't match their preconceptions of who'd 'ordinarily' do the things I've done (especially things requiring physical strength). I have found myself confused by THEIR confusion, thinking 'yeah, well if I can do it, then it isn't just reserved for men only' (or just for 'butches', for that matter). ...Kinda like wearing 'men's' clothing -- if it's on my body, then it's WOMEN'S clothing ....? [If clothing actually needs to be assigned a gender...]

But, as far as fighting for my 'right' to be/remain 'butch'...I've experienced others trying to put me in 'my place', into the 'place' where they'd feel more 'comfortable' with me (mostly, by having their expectations of me better satisfied). I make my determination known that I will continue being/behaving who/what I am WITHOUT insisting they accept my 'butchiness', the particular 'butch' label they have in mind (that I can't really see or clearly articulate)...whatever 'butchness' they've perceived. When all is said and done, I'm not actually all that interested in 'helping' them process through their own preconceptions, mis-interpretations, and stereotypes they built in their own minds. I am who I am, what I am. And if others show an entrenched stubborness, an insistence on maintaining premises/conclusions based on inaccurate paradigms, then I will NOT attempt forcing them to see/learn something about humans that they're obviously not ready for. It'd be like trying to force a rose to open--and then getting disappointed when the end result doesn't match the hoped-for visuals. [There are exceptions to not ever coercing others to broaden their horizons, of course. Those exceptions usually revolve around the violation of basic 'rights'. Making others accept one as a 'butch' doesn't really qualify, though it would make resultant decisions of how to treat a 'butch' be better-informed choices...maybe.]

In answer to one of the other original questions...yes, being perceived incompletely and/or inaccurately has been a tremendous/frequent difficulty for me. I still remember in the early nineties (when I publicly 'came out') how much difficulty I'd had with those around me (hetero's who were sure I wasn't being enough of a girl) and then being even more flabbergasted when, trying to 'integrate' into a gay/lesbian group, the lesbians/dykes there did their best to make me not want to attend their meetings anymore. They asked me, rather scornfully, what the h*ll I was doing there. Then, some months after that, one of the group members committed suicide. I remember going to a therapist to try getting help working through the grief (I'd been pretty fond of the woman who'd died). The therapy didn't go too far because the counselor couldn't stop questioning that I was a lesbian. "But, I can sense the goodness in you", she kept insisting... That experience began the (approx.) 18-year (and counting ) lifetime of my quest(ing) for recognition (and, ideally, acceptance) of what/who I truly am regarding orientation...it's been good practice for also adding in my Aspie-ness for others to recognize and accept.

I'm... not really normal-butch, and I know one other lesbian aspie, so I can't really answer your question directly.

With regards to physical appearance and gender-identity type stuff, I am completely butch. But my behavior tends to be really aspie (flaily, excitable/quiet, arguably childish) and frankly feminine, so it's on and off as to whether I'm perceived as particularly butch, and I don't expect anything either way (with strangers, I consistently get taken for a gay or metro guy ). I don't know, it doesn't really bother me -- someone else's opinion of my identity doesn't affect my identity.

At the end of the day, I'm me, and I don't know how to be anyone else. Whatever labels, however correct or incorrect, someone wants to apply to that are frankly irrelevant. Stereotypes within the LGBT community aren't any more valid than any other stereotypes.

Fascinating insight.