Apies and frustrations with Church.

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As a child, I enjoyed church. It was a place where I could go, sit and take in my surroundings. Back then for me, it was to me a source of knowledge and spirituality primarily. I am now 19 and for a few years now I have found myself very frustrated with the church and church goers because of the pressure placed upon me to conform to the norms of the church in a social sense.

Teen and adult protestants seem to be all very similar to me. Every service or church based seems to be followed and preceeded by a painful period of socialising. This socialising is basically all meaningless small talk. As an Aspie I find this unstimulating and frustrating. I feel intimidated by everyone's seemingly compulsary pleasantries. The smiles and the politeness hide the way people really feel about each other and this environment fosters resentment. By its nature these forced smiles are a form of deciet. This is something I find hard to handle.

It may be partly anxiety but I feel constantly aware that I am being judged. A few years ago, in high school I was told by a Christian friend of mine that I wasnt talking or acting enough like a true Christian should and was thus setting a bad example. My nature is that I enjoy solitude to an extent and feel suffocated by the large numbers of people that gather together at Churches, youth groups etc. I resent the Church because I cannot understand why it has no place for the individual. Each denomination has a quantified view of what constitutes a good Christian. Someone who is easily frustrated by his environment, doesnt make good eye contact, doesnt have confidence and doesnt spout off overused lines about Jesus being an easy fix to any and every problem (which my logical mind believes to be impossible) to any and everone like me is can never reach achieve anything like what is expected of them.

Another source of frustration for me is that no body questions anything in a church or church groups. I have an inquisitive mind and I often wonder about interpretations of the bible. I also ponder whether over time the bible itself has become "contaminated" by authors with their own agendas. I find this to be highly probable. Inconsistancies in versions of books of the bible like Daniel and Mark make me feel that everything in the bible should be "taken with a grain of salt" (not immediately taken as absolute truth). My view is definitely frowned upon as most Christians take the bible as they see it as an absolute form of the word of God.

I have faith in Jesus and am spiritual but I wonder why God let the church segregate. I havent found any predictions of this occurance in the bible.

I feel that my spiritual connection is different to that of NT's. Could this be because I am wired differently? Does anyone else feel this way?

I also have an interest in wierd occurances in the bible. Take Genesis 6:1-4 or Ezekiel chapter 1 for example. I would love to talk to any aspies with a similar interest. Otherwise what are the general views/frustrations others have with churches?

I am very keen to hear everyone's opinions so please dont be shy. Sorry this is so long it should be about 3 posts but I started on this topic and couldnt stop. Believe me I could go on if I wanted.

First, only God judges, we all have sinned, let he who is without cast the first stone, etc. So I question the person who told you that you're a bad example. Anyone with faith should just accept people as they are. The church should be a sanctuary for people who don't fit into the "norm" of capitalist society.

I can understand your frustrations. I have found the talk in some churches to be pretty off-putting. The pastor who leads the congregation sets the tone. If you're going to a Baptist hell-and-brimstone church, you may feel your "failings" to be more acute. Visit another church. Churches are different because people are different. If all churches were the same, Paul would not have written any letters. You should question the Bible. You're not a robot.

I see my time in church as a way to practice connecting with others. A conversation is give and take. I use the commonality of the Bible as a starting point to talk to people. Man is a social animal (Aristotle) and we were not made to be alone ALL of the time. (See Castaway) I don't believe in using AS as an excuse; it's a challenge we have to face. Jesus is an example for living; he's not Mr Fix It.

Think about the reality you're confronted with versus your reaction to it. Are you really constantly being judged? That's a bad place to be if you are. As far as the individual from the group is concerned, it sounds like you're becoming more your own person, and that's good.

For some reason, writing this post made me think of two books that I've found helpful on some level.

Social Intelligence: The New Science of Human Relationships (Hardcover)
by Daniel Goleman

The Fine Art of Small Talk: How to Start a Conversation, Keep it Going, Build Networking Skills--and Leave a Positive Impression! by Debra Fine

Yea, the second one sounds lame, but she presents some good tips.

i was just goint to say

first of all, i have just skimmed through your post, will read it later, after I have written this lol i am a rather impatient person.
yeah, I have often a rather bad image of the Church. Yet, I stay Roman Catholic. Why? I'd say simply because of the "tithe" (is it tithe? my native language is german. Anyway, I mean what you pay to the Church, so it can be given to the needy and so on).
I do believe in Christ, but I don't like the Church's pomp and furthermore disagree in several other points. And when I disagree in one point, I disagree with the entire institution. Yet, I go to church every sunday, because I think, Jesus also went to the synagogue or temple even though there were Pharesees. Plus, I am not a community person and I know none of my parish. MAybe some day God will lead me to a new parish, which will suit me better.
What is more, I valuate different parts of the bible differently, for instance I rate parts of the Old Testament not so important, wheras the NT, especially when Jesus is speaking, I consider the most important of all. Then again, some statements in the letters of his disciples or in Revelations I consider not very high.
My belief also differs from that of other christians. I haven't been raised in a christian way, but at some point of my life I understood why Christ was the only alternative to a society sworn to rationalism, materialism, cold egotism and suicide. Furthermore he is the only God who willingly chose the death at a cross, a very important point to me, as I assess suffering very high. Christ Jesus had the very best understanding of the human nature. So all other beliefs became nothing to me, mere jokes.
I'd *love* to have my own parish, because I disagree with other Christians, especially Roman Catholics in so many points.

I just read MeshGearFox's post, and I wanted to comment: every time I see Castaway I think that I could quite enjoy living on a lonely island I wouldn't even need a Wilson, hehe.

BenJ, I wish I had your insight when I was your age.

Part of it is indeed that AS and phoney 'smile-button' evangelicalism, the norm of much of 'middle America', don't mix!

Realise that (as it seems you have already) and deal - find another church if you have to.

When I was a little younger than you I latched onto everything Catholic partly as an attempt to fit in as I saw it, (mis)reading cues I got from the culture. Of course it didn't work but 'you'll value the values'. I essentially believe in it today.

One of those truths is the Bible is not self-interpreting.

Firstly, though I follow a form of atheism (Egotheism) I don't think believing a in a deity is wrong.

BUT

Needing an ancient heavily censored, edited and misinterpeted book is paramount to slavery. The same of needing some withered old man spewing whatever brand of "God" he's been programmed to speak for.

The only one who can tell you what God means to you is yourself. This often means doing what many fear: Confronting their own demons and crimes. They would have to face the barrage of questions from the only person whose opinion truly matters - THEMSELVES.

It's too much for most to bear so they take the pre-made gods provided by old men and ancient rotting books. What I'm saying is - Holy Books are pointless, they are the definition of god from an ancient man who has long passed. Priests are pointless, they are little more then robots programmed to spew a few phrases without thinking for themselves.

As I have said before: Find your own definition of god.

Maybe this renders you an atheist, so what? It's your definition and therefore the only one right for you.

Maybe makes you a monotheist, that's cool to.

Maybe this makes you a Polytheist. Well then, all the more gods to worship!

Maybe it makes feel the best way to honor your god is a funky dance everyday at Noon, then do it with pride everyday.

Maybe your god or gods need no worship, all the better for poor them!

End of Rant

I can identify with the first poster. I was raised catholic, went to church every Sunday as a matter of fact up until I was like 16 or 17. Back then I didn't conform that well either, I was pretty well behaved but that's about as far as I'd go. It did seem like the real moral pressure wasn't understanding and living what we were hearing nearly as much as being a model yuppy, dressing the part, watching football and baseball, and listening to country. That was the very part of the atmosphere that I really wasn't feeling. By the time they started replacing the piano player or organs with praise bands playing guitar and singing the hymnals I needed to get myself out of there.

What I really loved about church was that feeling of reverence toward something greater than us and greater than this earth, reverence is just one of those emotions that's really powerful and something I can definitely pull a lot of charge off of. To this day even, if I were to go to a church, I'd much rather go to some old inner-city church that was built in the 1800's or 1900's with the hard wooden pews, really dressed up stone-work and interior sculpture, huge gothic pipe organ, and if I really got lucky a preacher delivering parts if not all of the mass in Latin. I know a lot of other sects of Christianity have a lot of irritation with the catholic taste for the extravagant when it comes to places of prayer but I get it - its like running a play, the props don't make the play but they ad to the ambiance and really help bring out the right emotional state to where when the feeling hits you you'll be or at least feel that much more connected.

Here's another downer as well though, when I was 22 or 23 there were a couple times like on easter when I would go to church with my parents and by that age when I went to church the kiddish look at things had worn off and I was feeling my surroundings in a much more adult way. Walking out with my parents though I had some old guy complaining about why I wasn't smiling, almost as to indicate that when in church I should just be some happy-go-lucky backstreet boy. People like that irritate me but there's a lot of em in the church, people who are kinda slow in the head, old-fashioned, think everyone is or should be like them, and there's no way to kill my high better than sitting there and judging me because I'm 50 years younger than you are, feeling the services much more than you are, and you're too slow in the head to grasp that fact. Anymore I just stay away from services, not because I have a problem with the god my parents raised me on, the people and their attitudes about who the person next to them should be or how that person should feel (even if its 'they need to be as spiritually and emotionally underdeveloped as I am') just really annoys me.

Oh yeah, and the other fact - between the NIV and King James it all seems too watered down, I almost get the impression that the reason believers themselves are that bad is because they won't explain the cosmology and how it all works. Don't know if people are too dumb to grasp more gnostic views or if they're simple-minded because they've been taught to be simple-minded but I doubt we'll ever know for sure. My faith needed something better than just sheerly a history lesson and earthly tangents that didn't put any of what the faith taught into a sensible context, I needed the exterior build of things just because - I'm an aspie and I can't just 'take things in faith', particularly when its someone else's word, without feeling like I'm getting smoke blown in my face.

I find that I want to be religious but I cannot make the connection the others make to a God. Religion simply remains a concept to be explored. A sort of theory. It is interesting but I am desperate for absolute proof, but that is not how religion operates. I thought about atheism and it didn't make sense to me but for some reason as much as I think about religion (I was raised Catholic so I usually think in a Judeo-Catholic concept but often with wild variants) I cannot make a any connection.

Yeah, I got pretty disillusioned against Christianity too. I'm not sure whether it was my 'seeing is believing' view of the world or when I got trash dumped by my youth group while my own brother just watched and laughed, maybe the combo.

Anyhow, the way I see, you shouldn't try to fit in with people that aren't going to accept you as you are, and you should either find a group that does or, failing that, find your own path as suggested above by Flagg.

Scientology is where it's at. Xenu and the gang are awesome. I love those E-Meters also. Man, what a great religion/cult.

I'm not a scientologist.

I am kind of an expert at going to religious institutions while enduring the least amount of socializing possible.

First, remember that there will always be weird people at religious institutions. Chances are you aren't the weirdest person there, and if you are, as long as you say as little as possible, and divulge as little information about yourself as possible (i.e. as long as you don't spill out your torrid religious history) you can probably maintain the appearance of not being the weirdest person in the building.

Lower your expectations and have your goal to be just getting whatever it is you need from church (I'll just use the word church here, but the same goes for synagogues, etc.). I.e., a peaceful time of meditation, escape from the house, searching for truth, praying, just being around other people for a while.

Go into the building acknowledging that you have "X" amount of social interactive ability. Use this ability sparingly. Be polite and say hi to people and make as much eye contact as you can when you say hi, but other than "hi," don't say anything to anyone unless you're approached and asked questions. Start a conversation first, ONLY if you're truly dying of curiosity to ask something. If anyone comments that you aren't "acting right," just tell them you're very shy (true) and that it is hard for you to socialize much (again, true).

Re: arguing and debating, I have a rule of respect when going to religious institutions, which means I am there as a guest and not a debater. I keep my mouth shut (this also takes the socializing pressure off.) You wouldn't go into someone's house and start criticizing their choice of furniture or whether or not their house is clean or messy. If you want to debate religion, there are many great places on the internet to do so. In fact there are a number of people here on WP obsessed with religion who would be happy to debate or discuss issues with you.

If there is a great deal of socializing before church, show up exactly when the service starts. If there is a lot of socializing afterward, stay just long enough so that you don't appear extremely rude (10-15 minutes?).

All religious places have a clannishness and a social pecking order. I don't even bother with this. My only goal is not to get kicked out (which has never yet happened to me). If I am invited to some gathering I say, "That sounds interesting," but I never follow up.

The only really unavoidable part is, in church, when you have to look around and shake hands with people and even (yuck) hug strangers. I have no advice on this other than to try to sit somewhere where there aren't many people near you (towards the back at the end of a row, that way you are adjacent to 2, instead of 4, seats).

I can identify with the first poster also. I feel uncomfortable when people talk to their friends and I have nothing to say. Many times unless I make an effort to join in the conversation myself,no one will even pay attention to me. It happens in both churches which I have gone to that are evangelical. I like the church I am going to now,even though I get in situations like this sometimes still, but I like almost everything else about the church (so far).

I can also identify with your frustrations about people not questioning anything in the church...but I feel most frustrated when people in churches in general don't hold the pastors accountable for their actions and then the pastors can do whatever they want.

Also, in churches there seems to be a lack of awareness and sympathy for us Aspies. For instance, this one church I went to wouldn't let me serve just because I was uncomfortable with the pastor there even though I could serve in places where I wouldn't even have to see him. They even blamed ME for being uncomfortble with him, instead of him for his actions.

And I hate that in evangelical churches, women can't be pastors or elders. But with the general doctrine and my *current* pastor I am satisfied.