[ POLL ] In Search Of A More Accurate Description.

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Please read the following text in its entirety before answering the poll and before posting an opinion.

Gender Expression refers to the way a person communicates gender identity to others through behavior, clothing, hairstyles, voice, or body characteristics. The external appearance of one's gender identity may or may not conform to socially-defined behaviors and characteristics typically associated with being either masculine or feminine.

Gender Identity is one person's innermost concept of self as male, female, a blend of both or neither. It is how individuals perceive themselves and what they call themselves. One's gender identity can be the same or different from their sex assigned at birth.

Sex is either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are assigned at birth respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures.

Sexual Orientation is a person's enduring emotional, romantic, sexual and relational attraction to someone else, which is different from whether one identifies as a man, woman, or gender fluid.

Transgender is an umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or expression is different from cultural expectations based on the sex they were assigned at birth. Being transgender does not imply any specific sexual orientation. Therefore, transgender people may identify as straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc. A trans-man is someone who was born female and transitions to a male gender identity. A trans-woman is someone who was born male and transitions to a female gender identity.

A process through which some transgender people begin to live as the gender with which they identify, rather than the one assigned at birth, may or may not include hormone therapy, sex reassignment surgery, and other medical components.

In the attached poll, please indicate your degree of agreement/disagreement, and then submit a reply explaining why you feel that way.

This poll and text are not intended to judge any individual or group of individuals; they are intended only as a means to find consensus on the definitions stated herein.

You may select only one option in the poll, but you may change your selection at any time.

Thank you.

Fnord

These are the definitions I've seen most commonly used and I think they're proper definitions. They're pretty descriptive and explain things well. The one for sex just seems a little clunky due to how it's worded, but otherwise it's fine. The only thing that I don't particularly agree with is the common usage of "assigned at birth", but that's just me being picky based off of personal experience. I'm trans, but I'm not majorly uncomfortable with and/or reject the fact my primary sex characteristics aren't male. As far as I know my genitals aren't the thing that developed "wrong" (for lack of a better way to word that) which that term assumes, so I don't feel like it's exactly accurate.

That's cool, Hero. These aren't my definitions, anyway. They just seem to make the most sense to me.

Metaphorically speaking, many people will say something like "A means X", only to have someone else declare "No, A means I before E except after C" or some other conditional convolution of phrases that contradict each other (in many cases).

One set of definitions that we can all agree on would make discussions in this sub-forum a little easier to follow, and much easier to learn from.

(Imho, of course.)

I assumed so and I agree they make sense. I definitely think it's a good idea to make definitions we can agree upon for these things, especially since I've seen arguments start from conversations about this (not necessarily on here, just, everywhere else lol). I just thought I'd add the thing about "assigned at birth" since I've seen some other trans people agree that's it's not exactly "accurate" and I guess I took the usage of "accurate" a bit too seriously. I don't mind the usage of it though and most people don't.

They make sense to me.

In some other discussions, those opposed to fixed and agreed-open definitions seemed interested only in pushing their own definitions. Oddly enough, those definitions would only support their arguments and no one else's.

It wasn't a matter of reaching an understand as much as it was them asserting their opinions as the only correct facts.

FYI, your text alterations make quoting you a pain in the ass. And not everyone is looking at a light-colored web page, so coloring your text black makes it difficult to read.

No opinion because I have no idea what this term is supposed to mean, mainly because the meaning of "gender" is ambiguous.


No idea what this term is supposed to mean either. Some people seem to use the phrase to refer to their attachment to gender roles, some use it to refer to something more individualized. It's also confusing because the same people who emphasize the difference between gender and sex also say that gender identity can be identification with one of the sexes (male or female). If male/female aren't genders, then how can male/female be gender identities?

No idea what "innermost" is supposed to mean. All concepts exist in the mind; is that the "innermost" space? Or is there something more "inner" than that?

What would a "blend" of male and female be?

"Sex assigned at birth" is a biological classification. If gender identity is but a concept, these two can't really be the same, and it doesn't seem to make sense to compare them at all. If gender identity is how individuals "perceive" themselves, and the perception doesn't line up with their sex classification (which it presumably would if the perception was sensory), it's unclear what kind of perception is meant.

Too vague. This definition doesn't get at the heart of sex as a biological classification. Also, I take issue with the idea that sex is "assigned" at birth. The newborns' sex-related anatomy is observed and classified. "Assigned" can be interpreted to imply that the male/female/intersexed labels are given out arbitrarily.


This is also too vague, and the phrase "to someone else" makes it seem like sexual orientation is directed towards only one person, when it is typically conceived of as being directed towards a specific group (i.e, men).


I doubt that there are cultural expectations about gender identity/expression. Many if not most people just want people to conform to gender roles, and probably don't much care how individuals feel/think about their own identity. Maybe in some cultures they care.

Well since people can "identify" (i.e., think of themselves) any way they wish without restriction, it's irrelevant what being transgender does or does not imply. Maybe your wording here is just poor.

Well according to your previous definition, gender identity is in the mind...so what does it mean to transition to a gender identity?

Also, it's redundant to say that a person was "born female." It's like saying someone was born human. The nature of being human and female (or male) is such that the femaleness (or maleness) is irrevocably set in every person by the time we are born.

Also, if people can have any of a variety of gender identities, it's unclear what "male gender identity" means. Males can have several different gender identities, according to you, so what is a "male gender identity"?

This requires a definition of gender to be meaningful.


And again...what is meant by "gender"? You've defined gender identity and gender expression, and they were both defined as aspects of individuals' experiences, so they cannot be assigned. So there must be some other meaning of gender.
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The explanations have already been given in a clear and concise form. In other words, I have explained them to you; but I cannot understand them for you.

There is a difference between "gender" and "sex," but I think the term "gender" is used to represent that realistically the brain and the bodies sex-related development isn't exactly tied together, and that they don't always end up the same. The human brain reacts differently and is structured differently based on your sex, and research is showing a lot of that configuration seems to be done before someone is born, and that in trans people their brain is structurally closer to, and reacts more like, the sex they "identify" as. "Gender" is just an easier, shorter way to say the way your brain has been configured sex-wise.

I definitely agree that the way "gender" is usually defined can be confusing and doesn't always make sense, but I think it's just because most people don't really understand/care about the biology behind it, and the easiest and most understandable way to explain it is to do so relating to how someone "perceives" themselves, or how they "feel". As for what those "feelings" for trans people are, I don't think I can accurately explain that as I bet your brain being configured differently than your body is going to feel different even between two people, just like how people with ASD are wired differently from NTs and two autistic people will have different experiences with that.



Trans people may (or may not) choose to "transition to a gender identity" due to the fact a lot of them experience discomfort either with the way they're perceived by others and/or the way their actual body is configured. It's not necessarily that they're becoming that gender, or transitioning into another gender, but that they're taking steps to reduce the issues that may come with your brains sex not being aligned with your bodies sex, such as wearing clothing that helps others view them as the gender they "identify" as (which can reduce harassment and other social problems) or taking hormone supplements to produce their desired secondary sex characteristics. The things trans people choose to do to "transition" (or whether they choose to do so at all) is also different for each individual, which I think is for the same reason before, that trans people aren't really configured exactly the same just like autistic people aren't.

I would also add, as it is external, it does not necessarily match one's inner gender identity - as generally social expression does not always match a person's self.

How one calls themself when others listen is rather part of gender expression.

I would split the hair in four:
Reproductive sex is biological, defined by reproductive abilities, one can be male, female, sterile or intersex.
What you describe (I can't think of the term for it) is taking one of the physical forms correlated to respective reproductive sex.

Agree.

I'm still having some problems with grey areas of these definitions - especially, some of my friends do accept their sex as reproductive and physical reality but don't incorporate it to their identity. Their gender expression tends to gravitate towards neutral and they neither identify as trans nor cis.

Maybe sometimes a person is just a person and this cis-trans duality does not match all the possible realities.

Well, Magz, that's just it: Any definition that attempts to fill in those "grey areas" tends to look like the U.S. Tax Code, complete with subjunctive clauses, exemptions, and special 'entitlements' for special-interest groups.

The best definitions are simple, concise, and direct. Once we all agree on a set of workable definitions, then we can all begin to have real, meaningful conversations on the topic.

As for me, the definitions I gave work in both legal and professional contexts, although I may make the modification you suggested. Thanks!

I have just woken up, and looking at the topic of this I expected for there to be some problem I found, but I think it is all broadly correct, although maybe no. Maybe just ordering the list in a way that can have understanding the definitions easier to understand for someone not too familiar, having the basic definitions that reference each other and finishing with exemptions. My order would probably be:

Sex: the sum of several biological factors such as chromosomes, genitals, reproductive organs, hormones, and secondary sex characteristics. Usually binary male or female, but intersex people may not have typical traits, and certain parts can be altered through surgery or hormone therapy.

Gender Identity: is one person's innermost concept of self as male, female, a blend of both or neither. It is how individuals perceive themselves and what they call themselves. One's gender identity can be the same or different from their sex assigned at birth.

Gender Expression: refers to the way a person communicates gender identity to others through behavior, clothing, hairstyles, voice, or body characteristics. The external appearance of one's gender identity may or may not conform to socially-defined behaviors and characteristics typically associated with being either masculine, feminine or androgyne.

Transgender: is an umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or expression is different from cultural expectations based on the sex they were assigned at birth. A trans-man is someone who was born female but has a male gender identity, a trans-woman is someone who was born male and transitions to a female gender identity, and a non-binary is a person of either sex and identifies as neither.

A transgender individual may choose to transition to their identified gender socially, through medical means to have their sex align better with their gender, but neither is required to be transgender.

Sexual Orientation: is a person's enduring emotional, romantic, sexual and relational attraction to someone else, which is different from whether one identifies as a man, woman, or gender fluid. Common orientation typified by attraction to gender or sex characteristics, such as attract to the gender opposite their own (straight), the same (lesbian/gay), either (bisexual), or neither (asexual).

Someone disturbed my alphabetical order!!

I like the way you ordered the definitions, it was a bit weird at first to go from term to term the way it was organized. The addition of mentioning intersex people is a good idea too, and the new definition for "sex" as it's a bit more descriptive of what "sex" actually is.

I just think that alphabetical order might not be the best in cases where people already hold a sex essentialism understanding of just person has penis, it goes into vagina. So someone who is not fully in the know can see the biology, understand how one feels on the inside does not have to match that birth biology, how they look on the outside does not have to match how they identify, what type of person may be mismatched, and then orientation at the end. I also thought that adding orientation in transgender would be a little reductive.

I can also think of a few descriptions of identities like the brackets I put under orientation.

Cis: the same gender as sex assigned at birth.

Trans: a separate gender from sex assigned at birth. (this does not mean transitioned or transitioning)

Gender Non-Conforming (GNC): does not conform to the gender expression of their gender identity. (as far as I know this does not make someone trans, such as crossdressers)

I think that some clarification under trans is also good for differentiating "transgender" from "transsexual", transsexual being one who has undergone sexual reassignment surgery, and although used to used kind of interchangeably in the past, it is kind of out of favour now. And don't even think of using "transvestite", which I think is considered pretty archaic, mostly only refers to being a crossdresser, with a bit of loaded stigma attached.

As a Non-Binary person, I am also aware of pressure that non-binary people can have to appear androgynous (both masculine and feminine) or be treated that they don't look non-binary enough. So why I added androgyne next to masculine and feminine in gender expression.

Okay, now we're just discussing the meta-aspects of the definitions, and not the presumed (in)validity of the definitions themselves.  May as well start a debate on which font to use, why I chose black as the color of that font, and how it all relates to people's difficulties in getting dates.

No ... let's not.

And if people are simply searching for identifying labels, and not necessarily interested in the "meat and potatoes" of this discussion, this method I invented lays out attraction, gender identity, and sex of an individual in three simple terms.

There are four "attractions" or "-tropics".

Androtropic - Attracted to males.
Ambitropic - Attracted to males and females (formerly "Bixexual")
Atropic - Not attracted to either sex (formerly "Asexual")
Gynotropic - Attracted to females.

"Cis-" and "Trans-" are modifiers for gender identity.

"Female" and "Male" are the two sexes.

A "Gynotropic Cis-Male" is a person who was born male, identifies as a man, and is attracted to women.

A "Gynotropic Trans-Male" is a person was born female, identifies as male, and is attracted to women.

I'm trying to get this terminology widely accepted to avoid confusion between all of the different gender definitions people label themselves with.

Three terms should be enough, so let's not complicate it with modifiers, subjunctives, astrological principles, letter fonts, et cetera.