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kokopelli
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05 Dec 2024, 9:38 am

I generally don't take sides on broad issues. I can often be in favor of someone on one issue and opposed to them on another issue.

That said, I am never on the side of terrorists. The idea of giving them carte blanche to do whatever they wish is appalling to me. And I certainly consider Hamas to be a terrorist organization.

And I'm far from alone on this. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas:

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Hamas has attacked Israeli civilians, including using suicide bombings, as well as launching rockets at Israeli cities. A number of countries, including Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States have designated Hamas as a terrorist organization.
Other country listed elsewhere include Argentina and Paraguay as well as the European Union. Even Egypt briefly listed Hamas as a terrorist organization.

As for the attack on the music festival, that has to be considered a very violent terrorist attack no matter how you look at it.



funeralxempire
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05 Dec 2024, 10:51 am

No s**t.

That doesn't mean Israel's genocidal actions should be condoned.


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kokopelli
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05 Dec 2024, 11:01 am

funeralxempire wrote:
No s**t.

That doesn't mean Israel's genocidal actions should be condoned.


Israel has done many things that I don't like, but I see no sign of them trying to commit genocide.

If they are trying to commit genocide, they are doing a really crappy and ineffective job of it.



funeralxempire
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05 Dec 2024, 11:04 am

kokopelli wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
No s**t.

That doesn't mean Israel's genocidal actions should be condoned.


Israel has done many things that I don't like, but I see no sign of them trying to commit genocide.

If they are trying to commit genocide, they are doing a really crappy and ineffective job of it.


This is a common talking point but not very well informed. If Israel's benefactors were forced to admit Israel is the antagonist and engaging in genocide they might have to change their policies towards Israel. This would be harmful to Israel's interests both in the short-term and in the long-term.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


kokopelli
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05 Dec 2024, 11:11 am

I may be wrong and hopefully someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I have read that prior to World War I, there were many people in the area from a wide variety of religions and ethnic groups and they generally tolerated each other pretty well. That includes, Arabs, Jews, Christians, ... .

Is that understanding correct?

I know that there was a war between the British and the Ottoman Empire in the region. One of my favorite stories is of the British using the Old Testament for military intelligence in the Battle of Michmash.



kokopelli
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05 Dec 2024, 11:12 am

funeralxempire wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
No s**t.

That doesn't mean Israel's genocidal actions should be condoned.


Israel has done many things that I don't like, but I see no sign of them trying to commit genocide.

If they are trying to commit genocide, they are doing a really crappy and ineffective job of it.


This is a common talking point but not very well informed. If Israel's benefactors were forced to admit Israel is the antagonist and engaging in genocide they might have to change their policies towards Israel. This would be harmful to Israel's interests both in the short-term and in the long-term.


I don't tolerate or defend terrorists. I guess you do. I don't understand your view on that.

Hamas committed a very vicious terrorist attack against Israel. The percentage of the population murdered in the attack was far higher than the percentage of the population killed by terrorists on 9/11. Israel has every right to defend themselves from such terrorists.



funeralxempire
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05 Dec 2024, 11:16 am

For what it's worth, they're all Arabic speakers whether they're Christians or Muslims.


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Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


funeralxempire
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05 Dec 2024, 11:17 am

kokopelli wrote:
I don't tolerate or defend terrorists. I guess you do. I don't understand your view on that.

Hamas committed a very vicious terrorist attack against Israel. The percentage of the population murdered in the attack was far higher than the percentage of the population killed by terrorists on 9/11. Israel has every right to defend themselves from such terrorists.


You defend a genocidal terrorist state but pretend you don't tolerate or defend terrorists. The irony of literally defending terrorists while insisting you don't tolerate or defend is lost on you.

Hamas was supported by Israel as long as they were useful, if only Israel had of engaged with other Palestinian entities in good faith they might not be fighting with Hamas now.


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


Mona Pereth
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05 Dec 2024, 11:45 am

I think it is more useful to speak of "war crimes" than "terrorism." Certainly, Hamas has committed war crimes.

There are international standards as to what constitutes a war crime, whereas "terrorism" seems to have become more a case of "government X designates group Y as a terrorist organization." The idea of "terrorism" has become subjective and politicized. One side's "terrorist" is the other side's "freedom fighter."

But, regardless of whether any given government deems Hamas to be "terrorists" or "freedom fighters," Hamas has certainly committed war crimes -- and those war crimes should be distinguished from the mere fact that Hamas has fought at all.


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bee33
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05 Dec 2024, 5:22 pm

I'm not aware of anyone who doesn't think Hamas are terrorists. That in no way justifies the horrific Israeli aggression toward the people of Gaza. I don't know what point you (the OP) think you're making. You don't seem to have one.