ASD is a big thing, but NVLD is a big thing too!

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ASD is a big thing, but NVLD IS A BIG THING TOO

I think that people with NVLD who have social awkwardness and behavioral "weirdness" technically have a distinct kind of autism/pervasive developmental disability, not (merely) a specific learning disability even when they do not fit criteria for ASD (for example, by too late onset of symptoms, too few symptoms or too subtle symptoms according to diagnostics). NVLD + social awkwardness is technically the same level of developmental disability and general support needs as ASD level 1 (or even larger in certain cases), but with different needs, different symptoms, different traits and different kinds of support and treatment necessary! If someone diagnosed with NVLD has no social awkwardness, is not considered "odd", then this person has "pure" developmental visual-spatial disorder (DVSD without social ineptitude and without being "weird"), in some people with DVSD social awkwardness may be not present (although DVSD can be a significant issue even when social awkwardness and "oddness" are absent).

But NVLD with social, behavioral, functional and adaptive problems, even when they came only in adulthood, is a different type of neurodiversity than "pure" DVSD, which can be considered an atypical autistic presentation (but with different set of symptoms and traits, which has different set of weaknesses and strengths than "classical" autistic presentation). There is too less support for people with NVLD/NLD Atypicality and difficulties experienced by people with NLD/NVLD appear to be generally belittled and dismissed which is very sad.

I don't know.
From the way I'm reading it, it's like saying all executive dysfunction should be a subtype of ADHD.
Or that everyone with anxiety should have a form of autism.


Sorry, but while that's already more or less applicable in some cases by making autism label a form of placeholder to access formal forms of support (IEP, therapy, medical insurance, etc. ) Mainly because of lack of formalized and medically recognized label.

To a point that the current resources for NVLD overlaps with autism social training as an attempt to counter visio-spatial issues through socialization.

The same argument can be said with missed dyspraxia diagnosis for having body language and planning issues.


And there is such thing as an allistic NVLD as much as there is such thing as an autistic NVLD.

The new term doesn't actually help. While I understand that's an attempt to understand the conditions themselves...

So why divide this particular learning disability with no social issues VS with social issues?
I don't think it's the same vein as non-masking non-passing autistics VS with masking and passing autistics needing the same urgency and support.

But needing the same urgency and support nonetheless.
NVLD is a cognitive profile. While a good portion of social consequences can be so similar and relatable to autism and yet...

The argument lacks anything outside the social issues that autism itself presents. Really, that's mostly it.

Amongst other stuff beneath the behaviorism and the consequences of the circumstances. (Shared associated genes, biophysical vulnerabilities, etc.)
If it turns out that NVLD is merely biologically some super specific and localized in fewer domains version of ASD, yeah, sure, there's a chance it can be true, social issues or not.

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I must admit that I deeply disagree with your point of view, Edna3362. I would define the word "autism" in BROADER way than you. For me, autism is socio(-emotional)-behavioral thing.

Diagnosis of a pervasive developmental disorder instead of a specific learning disorder helped me a lot. I am considered pretty disabled and I have large support due to that. I have social pension, care allowance and I can use public transport in capital agglomeration in my country for free despite having just moderate level of disability due to a pervasive developmental disorder, not due to mental illness like schizophrenia or other psychoses (where there are no free public transport use for people who are in their thirties) despite not having severe level of disability. I think that disability support system in Poland is (at least in theory) better than disability support system in USA.

I think that something called nonverbal learning disability should be categorised as a pervasive developmental disability instead of a specific learning disorder. I do not want my suffering and difference to be belittled, dismissed and unsupported.

I do not fit to stereotypical Asperger syndrome presentation which is almost the same as high-functioning autistic disorder (the only differences between "stereotyped Asperger syndrome" and high-functioning childhood autism may be faster and less disordered speech development with better adaptive skills in early childhood and these differences are really small especially when we consider adolescents and adults!). I have significantly other profile, however.

I found such a comparison between NVLD, Asperger's, HFA and ADHD somewhere:

I may not meet so precise descriptions of anyone's cognitive profiles.

I wonder if someone did not put "-" instead of ":" in the text about NVLD, Aspergers, HFA and ADHD.

I think that the traits mentioned under "Aspergers-" are traits of a pervasive developmental disability distinct from Kanner's syndrome. I think that what is known as NVLD has to be renamed to avoid belittlement of the differences and deficits present in the persons who have it as a mere learning disorder instead of a pervasive developmental disorder.

I suppose that at least in many cases NVLD is a kind of what was known as schizoid (eccentric) psychopathy and autistic (pathologically avoidant) psychopathy in the times of Grunya Sukhareva decades ago. In this condition, social, emotional, behavioral, functional difficulties and differences should be the main feature, not (relative) visual-spatial weakness. I think that at least some cases of what is called NVLD may be cases of "developmental schizoautistic disorder" which is suggested type of pervasive developmental disorder associated with schizoid or (and) schizotypal features present since childhood in which NVLD profile is typically present. This PDD has more or less superficial similarities with classic autism despite being neurobiologically distinct from classic autism and probably unrelated to classic autism. And, what is especially important, it would be a genuine pervasive developmental disability, not mere learning disability.

Maybe ASD - autism spectrum disorder (classic autism and conditions related to it) and suggested DSA - developmental schizoautistic disorder are two urelated kinds of "developmental autism" and two unrelated kinds of pervasive developmental disorder, maybe relations between them are at least a bit like the fact that there are two "faces" of ADHD: inattentive and hyperactive-impulsive where, for example, someone can have 9 symptoms of inattention and 1 symptom (or even 0 symptoms) of hyperactivity-impulsivity and still would be diagnosed with the disorder.

I have such an opinion about so-called nonverbal learning disorder and "Temple Grandin autistic phenotype":

I think that what is called NVLD is distinct from classic ("Kannerian") autism (the condition which is present in the case of Temple Grandin) and unrelated to it despite certain superficial similarities, but I also think that NVLD causing social, emotional, behavioral, functional, optionally also sensory differences and difficulties has to be renamed as a genuine pervasive developmental disorder (technically an atypical kind of autism unrelated to Kanner syndrome) to avoid classifying people experiencing it as being labelled as having merely a learning disorder instead of a more general and life-changing atypicality.

In this pervasive developmental disorder being, colloquially speaking, "socially awkward weirdo" despite not being neurobiologically related to the condition described by Leo Kanner would be the most prominent and defining, basic feature, not (especially when just relative to verbal asset) visual-spatial weakness. This disorder may be more like a pre-adulthood-onset (especially childhood-onset) version of cluster A (odd-eccentric) personality disorder (where schizoid, schizotypal and paranoid personality disorders are placed in the DSM) instead of being necessary associated with developmental visual-spatial deficit.

Developmental visual-spatial weakness without social awkwardness would be just a developmental visual-spatial disorder, a separate neurodevelopmental disorder. The issue would be what to do with children, adolescents and adults having visual-spatial weakness who are socially awkward but do not fit to cluster A (odd-eccentric) personality disorder cluster symptoms.

So:
- the term "nonverbal learning disorder" should be considered obsolete because of its misleading and dismissing, belittling character,
- developmental visual-spatial disorder - a separate neurodevelopmental disorder,
- developmental visual-spatial disorder with social awkwardness due to visual-spatial skills deficits, but without odd-eccentric traits/symptoms - ?,
- not related to Kanner syndrome "socially awkward weirdo" profile of symptoms and traits, starting in childhood or (in the case of some girls) in adolescence, with cluster A personality disorders (odd-eccentric) traits/symptoms - a genuine pervasive developmental disorder which needs new name which would not mislead as if it is just a learning/academical issue, but which will inform that this disorder has most impact on social, emotional, behavioral, functional, adaptive, optionally or sometimes sensory areas and is a full-right pervasive developmental disorder - just like ASD with good intelligence and with no functional language impairment - technically an atypical kind of widely-defined (broader) autism (phenotype), but different and unrelated to Kanner's syndrome.

It is interesting what "ICD-10 and DSM-IV Aspies" in fact have. Is it something other or more than developmental-visual spatial disorder with social awkwardness due to visual-spatial deficits?

Or are there even more than two groups of people diagnosed with Asperger syndrome using ICD-10 or DSM-IV:
- one falling into ASD,
- one associated with DVSD and visual-spatial deficits causing social awkwardness(?) which did not fall into ASD
- and at least one other which is neither first or second - not falling into ASD, but also not having DVSD causing visual-spatial impairment resulting in social awkwardness and (or) having something more than DVSD with visual-spatial problems causing social awkwardness?

The way you've been expressing over these things will definately point you out as very likely autistic.

Not because it's a "socially weird stuff to be interested in" it's because how you're currently presenting all of whatever you've been posting.

This is a category B type (the less social bit of autism).



But do any of this actually help others with NVLD advocate for themselves?
Do others, even the majority of those with NVLD resonate with any of that?

How exactly does this help you?

Is the theory even right, regardless of the point? Is NVLD itself "a form of autism"?
Only time can tell.

I'm just betting at "very highly likely no" and the patterns so far it's a "no" -- just like any other learning disabilities involved so far.

That dyssemia trait socialization hype isn't all that is autism, just like alexithymia low empathy trait isn't all that is autism either, nor does motor planning deficit (the same issue and possibly I cn use the same argument to another learning disability -- which is dyspraxia) to a point of it's severe types a non speaking trait makes an autism nor that even makes an autism a 'severe autism'.

Nor does the story of "I always feel left behind by peers" story.
And that a good portion of autistic social processing issues are stand alone regardless of their cognitive and emotional profiles.



You genuinely never met nor seen members in this forum who had frequently complained about their disproportionately low performance IQ?

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I read about certain people having significantly lower PIQ than VIQ in that forum. At least some of them were diagnosed with a PDD or ASD.

I found such a fragment here (viewtopic.php?t=271203&p=6500908#p6501352): For some reason, Byron Rourke turned a heterogenous group of disorders into one syndrome. Not only that, but he also made that syndrome into a "model"--a research framework to look at other complex conditions through. He came up with, like, 20 other syndromes the NLD model was useful for. In his 1980s book "Nonverbal Learning Disabilities: The Syndrome and the Model," he argues that autism is NLD plus global language impairment. (He was wrong.)

So I suppose that there should be say that NVLD (DVSD, developmental visual-spatial disorder) with social awkwardness due to visual-spatial cognitive impairment is clearly not autism but some degree of social ineptitude is clearly associated with visual-spatial learning disability and not with autistic symptoms (such as potential social awkwardness in a person with childhood-onset fluency disorder are not caused by autistic symptoms, but by COFD) and that NVLD and DVSD should be synonyms...

In 1980's there were no use of DSM-IV or ICD-10 which contain Asperger syndrome among pervasive developmental disorders. "Social NVLD" is just mislabelled autism with better IQ and better language development in my opinion, possibly often with comorbidities like ADHD which can alter autism presentation, making autism more "chaotic" and "novelty craving", leading to larger number of special interests instead of just one or two and to appearance of "short-term interests" which can occur in ADHD but fade rather quickly.

Very important words: In his 1980s book "Nonverbal Learning Disabilities: The Syndrome and the Model," [b]he argues that autism is NLD plus global language impairment. (He was wrong.)

Maybe it is THE SOURCE of the "autism or NVLD" controversy? If autism had been NLD plus global language impairment, then autism without global language impairment would have been NLD...

So there could be proposed that nonverbal learning disorder and developmental visual-spatial disorder to be synonyms. In NVLD aka DVSD social ineptitude is NOT required for diagnosis (although mostly present due to visual-spatial cognitive deficits), but in autism it is a necessary hallmark. Autism can be without NVLD/DVSD and NVLD/DVSD can be without autism.

I would say that every person who has NLD and has social ineptitude and is "odd" (almost?) certainly is autistic too and that such a person has a form of autism co-morbid with NVLD (while NVLD is developmental visual-spatial disorder/spatial learning disorder/visual-spatial-motor learning disorder, not a social-behavioral disorder or socio-emotional-behavioral neuroatypicality). Autism is general developmental difference which is mainly social-behavioral in nature and influences someone's thinking, feeling and needs a lot. NVLD is developmental visual-spatial-motor learning impairment. Someone with autism can have autism without NVLD or autism with NVLD. Having NVLD does not exclude the possibility of having autism and vice versa.

I think that there are many kinds of autism, four subtypes of autism were indentified in research mentioned in this article: https://www.thetransmitter.org/spectrum ... -subtypes/ (Untangling biological threads from autism’s phenotypic patchwork reveals four core subtypes) and I think that one of these subtypes usually has "in-built" NVLD in it (probably not the largest group—consisting of 1,976 people—shows mild challenges in core autism traits, but one of the other two subtypes are somewhere in between: the one group which specifically experiences social challenges and disruptive behavior (which appears to fit to the presentation of first case of "autistic psychopathy" described by Hans Asperger - a boy with a pseudonym Fritz V., who started to talk early and started to walk some months after starting to talk).