The Neurological Difference Between Autistic's/Neurotypicals

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Does Darwinian evolution favor the autistic brain?
No 59%  59%  [ 13 ]
Yes 14%  14%  [ 3 ]
Maybe 9%  9%  [ 2 ]
Replace this site's mascot with a picture of Moon 18%  18%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 22

Ettina
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02 Jul 2013, 2:13 am

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I agree with you but it also highlights the flaws in an IQ test. An IQ test should not relate to one's knowledge, rather it should relate to one's cognitive abilities, and this is why I disagree so heavily with vocabulary and other knowledge based tests being involved in evaluation. Organizing vocabulary words is an intelligence but the extent of one's vocabulary biases this.


Every test has flaws. A competent clinician is aware of this and takes it into account. For example, some subtests are more experience-dependent than others, and in an individual with poor educational opportunities there tends to be a distinctive profile suggesting they do better on less experience-dependent subtests.

However, among people with similar educational opportunities, the more experience-dependent subtests do add valuable information. In addition to tapping experiential opportunities to different degrees, different subtests also tap different specific cognitive abilities. For example, most of the verbal subtests are highly experience-dependent, so if you removed all the highly experience-dependent tests, you would underestimate the abilities of someone with VIQ>PIQ (for example someone with nonverbal learning disability). (There are some experience-dependent nonverbal tests, such as Picture Arrangement, but it's a smaller proportion of the tests.)

There is no perfect test for intelligence, so we have to make do with imperfect tests, while taking into account their imperfections.



Janissy
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02 Jul 2013, 8:21 am

MoonCanvas wrote:
Autistic's tend to have larger brains. It's time people wake up to reality.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShD72mfYqUM[/youtube]
Neurotypicals simply have smaller brains. Meaning... And for the record, not only is my skull larger than my father's but my father is also dumb enough to say "Obama is a Muslim sympathizing ******" meaning my intelligence also correlates positively with my larger skull. The correlation is accurate and I think from a Darwinian point of view, autistic's will take over the population in a few more centuries. What need is there to love one's family when you have logic and reasoning? The human race was going to evolve into a species of people who discard their instincts for logic and this is what we're seeing. All speculation but really, normal people can't sense as well, can't think as well, and seem to kill eachother(Iraq War, World War's).


1)Who did the skull measuring. It needs to be an objective 3rd party who is able to use the measuring tape (if done at home) in exactly the same place on both skulls and who also takes into account your greater amount of hair. A young man has much thicker hair than a middle aged man and that must be taken into account. It could easily be that your skulls are the exact same size but your thicker hair confounded the measurement unless it was done with a device that puts a rod through the hair and directly onto the skull.

2)Even if your skull is larger, this does not mean that your brain is larger than your father's. There can be variations in thickness of skull and variations in how close the brain is to the skull, although since those things are genetic it is likely to be the same or at least very similar to your father since you are his direct descendent unless adopted.

3)You do realize, don't you, that you are not going to be evolutionarily different from your father.

4)An angry political remark that your father made and that you don't agree with does not mean you are smarter than him.

5)Q: "What need is there to love one's family when you have logic and reasoning?"
A: Logic and reasoning should have led you to the anwer. Love binds people together emotionally and causes emotional investment in the well being of other people, creating incentive for not destroying them and making social support networks possible. In practice it's a lot more complicated than that and the love sometimes backfires horribly with horrible results, but that is the reason it evolved.

6)Discarding instincts for logic is not a good idea for either individual or species survival. Instinct and logic are in balance and are likely to stay in balance unless we start tinkering with our DNA to somehow actively alter that. Luckily there is a large body of scientific knowledge about the necessities of various emotions and instincts. Do not fall into the trap of thinking that there is some sort of divide whereby NTs got all the instinct/emotion and AS people got all the logic/reason. There is no such divide.

7)There is evidence that many AS people have certain senses heightened as opposed to NT people. (Intense World Theory, which does look credible). This will be helpful in some situations, hurtful in others. As another poster noted, these sensory sensitivities would be helpful in a hunter/gatherer enviroment, harmful in an urban enviroment. So maybe the sensory filter is an adaptation to increased crowding and AS people don't have that filter. Or maybe it's something else. The genetic signatures are still being worked out. Once they are worked out, it will be possible to DNA test various populations and see the spread of various alleles and see how they correlate with other features. Do hunter/gatherer populations have these hypersensitivities but without autism? Who is carrying the genetic markers (whatever they will turn out to be) but doesn't have autism? And why? Is there an enviromental component?

In a terribly ham handed way you did sort of raise those questions in the other thread you started about doubting there is such a thing. I think it will ultimately turn out to be much more complicated than it currently seems. Some things under the autism spectrum umbrella may turn out to be unrelated but superficially similar acting. There might be a complex interaction between many genes and many enviromental factors. Further understanding of epigenetics could help sort that out.

But I doubt it is as simple as being farther forward (Next Step in Evolution theory) or farther back (Neanderthal theory) on a linear human evolution timeline. Things never turn out to be that simple.



The_Walrus
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02 Jul 2013, 9:27 am

Autistic people are less likely to reproduce than non-autistic people.

Therefore, autism is an evolutionary disadvantage.



Ettina
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02 Jul 2013, 10:16 am

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What need is there to love one's family when you have logic and reasoning?


If you would chose logic over love, you're a psychopath. (And I mean this seriously - that's one of the hallmarks of how psychopaths think.)



MoonCanvas
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02 Jul 2013, 10:21 am

Janissy wrote:
6)Discarding instincts for logic is not a good idea for either individual or species survival. Instinct and logic are in balance and are likely to stay in balance unless we start tinkering with our DNA to somehow actively alter that. Luckily there is a large body of scientific knowledge about the necessities of various emotions and instincts. Do not fall into the trap of thinking that there is some sort of divide whereby NTs got all the instinct/emotion and AS people got all the logic/reason. There is no such divide.

In a way I disagree(only with this specific paragraph), especially if you imply AS aren't dominant when it comes to logic/reason.

People say autistic's have worse cognitive empathy than normal people but I am skeptical. Natural selection has been based off emotions/culture, yet not because normal people understand emotions/thoughts. It's because they just happen to correctly guess other normal people's emotions and feelings(which was the selection process), which technically is not cognitive empathy. It sure does look like empathy, but they do it off instinct and only with normal people involving normal people. I can tell; because normal people still kill innocent people(wars in other countries), treat animals inhumanely, and also treat autistic's in insensitive manners. I might have made terrible sense here, hope I didn't sound confusing.



MoonCanvas
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02 Jul 2013, 10:24 am

Ettina wrote:
Quote:
What need is there to love one's family when you have logic and reasoning?


If you would chose logic over love, you're a psychopath. (And I mean this seriously - that's one of the hallmarks of how psychopaths think.)

Oh, thank you. I think it's the reason I was thought to be autistic by my therapist, but a psychopath would be a better definition. It's mostly due to my strong tendency to never think in bias; I treat my parents the same as I'd treat any strangers. I think it's not really an issue, as it protects me from being betrayed by friends/family(as I couldn't give any less a **** about love) though I doubt they would betray me.

Just my opinion, I can't help but say this... Feelings of love are worthless, just genetic programming that are used in place of reason. You can find plenty of emotional people in prison.



Adamantium
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02 Jul 2013, 10:39 am

I am curious about what motivates you, MoonCanvas. Would you mind explaining how you believe you are motivated to do things? Post here, for instance?

This question does tie directly to what you are saying about yourself here.



MoonCanvas
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02 Jul 2013, 10:53 am

Adamantium wrote:
I am curious about what motivates you, MoonCanvas. Would you mind explaining how you believe you are motivated to do things? Post here, for instance?

This question does tie directly to what you are saying about yourself here.

I have no life, am emotionally disturbed, and only continue living so I can whack off.



Adamantium
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02 Jul 2013, 11:04 am

MoonCanvas wrote:
I have no life, am emotionally disturbed, and only continue living so I can whack off.


Unless writing comments such as these facilitates your erotic self stimulation, this can't be true.

However, let's suppose that masturbation was your primary goal and motivation, how does this provide a logical basis for anything?

I propose that a rational analysis of whatever drives, impulses or habits underly your behavior will result in the conclusion that logic does not motivate you. You may use logic in the service of your irrational goals, but your goals are not fundamentally logical.

A statement such as "what need is there to love one's family when you have logic and reasoning" is illogical.



Ettina
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02 Jul 2013, 11:17 am

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People say autistic's have worse cognitive empathy than normal people but I am skeptical. Natural selection has been based off emotions/culture, yet not because normal people understand emotions/thoughts. It's because they just happen to correctly guess other normal people's emotions and feelings(which was the selection process), which technically is not cognitive empathy. It sure does look like empathy, but they do it off instinct and only with normal people involving normal people. I can tell; because normal people still kill innocent people(wars in other countries), treat animals inhumanely, and also treat autistic's in insensitive manners. I might have made terrible sense here, hope I didn't sound confusing.


You're confusing cognitive empathy and emotional empathy. Abusing or killing others is more related to emotional empathy. And the typical NT feels emotional empathy only for their 'in-group', although how inclusive the in-group is varies according to culture and beliefs.

As for cognitive empathy, it actually involves two separate components - a perceptual and a cognitive component.

The perceptual component (expression recognition) is the ability to recognize and interpret specific nonverbal signals, for example realizing that someone is sad by the way their mouth and eyes are positioned. For NTs, this skill only really works properly on other NT, or on neurodivergences that don't affect use of body language. Essentially, it's a language, and some people such as autistics don't speak the same language as NTs. However, many autistics can understand each others' body language better than NTs can.

The cognitive component (theory of mind) refers to the ability to reason about what could be in someone's head. You won't know for certain, because you can't read minds, but if someone has not had an opportunity to find something out, it's reasonable to assume they don't know it. If someone is searching for an object in the wrong place, he or she probably thinks the object is there. Heuristic rules like these are learnt by NTs throughout childhood, and autistics are often slower to learn them. And there's little real reason to expect that NTs' use of theory of mind would be any less accurate about autistics versus other NTs, since both groups need to perceive something to know it's there, and usually act in accordance with what they believe, and so forth. (Actually, deaf or blind people should be trickier to figure out using ToM than autistic people are.)

Note, by the way, I suspect ToM issues in autistics arise at least in part as an effect of expression recognition issues. Research suggests that conditions that impede your access to social information can cause a delay in ToM. Congenitally blind kids tend to be about a year behind in ToM compared to sighted kids (this is even when using ToM tests that don't depend on vision or visual learning). Deaf kids' ToM varies according to their language ability, with Deaf of Deaf kids having no delay in either, while early-diagnosed Deaf kids whose hearing parents decide to use sign language are mildly delayed, orally taught Deaf kids are moderately delayed, and Deaf people who received no language education at all until adolescence or adulthood are severely delayed in ToM (as in, a 40 year old failing a test that a typical five year old would pass). So if not learning language or not seeing people's actions and facial expressions can delay ToM, inability to interpret nonverbal cues should also cause delays in ToM in many cases.



TallyMan
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02 Jul 2013, 2:19 pm

MoonCanvas wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
I am curious about what motivates you, MoonCanvas. Would you mind explaining how you believe you are motivated to do things? Post here, for instance?

This question does tie directly to what you are saying about yourself here.

I have no life, am emotionally disturbed, and only continue living so I can whack off.


From your own admissions in posts I've seen on another site, your only reason for posting here on WP are lame attempts at trolling:
http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=278354

http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=278124

I've banned your account... so you've got more time to whack off now. Have fun. :lol:


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