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abacacus
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09 Feb 2014, 2:25 am

I find old technology fascinating. It's so interesting to look through the ages and watch the evolution the tools we use every day, and some things (like steam powered technology) is interesting aside from that.


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auntblabby
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09 Feb 2014, 2:37 am

I find this whole discussion curious, in that I am old enough to have lived back in the days of olde when telephones were analog and you had to twist your fingers in the dial to call people up, and even back then I wondered if there ever would be something better like, maybe pushbuttons or something. I remember listening to my crackly old records and wondered if there ever would be anything with similar or better sound fidelity but no crackles, and when CDs came around I was overjoyed. my point is the in many ways the "good ol' days" were not that good most of the time.



abacacus
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09 Feb 2014, 2:48 am

auntblabby wrote:
I find this whole discussion curious, in that I am old enough to have lived back in the days of olde when telephones were analog and you had to twist your fingers in the dial to call people up, and even back then I wondered if there ever would be something better like, maybe pushbuttons or something. I remember listening to my crackly old records and wondered if there ever would be anything with similar or better sound fidelity but no crackles, and when CDs came around I was overjoyed. my point is the in many ways the "good ol' days" were not that good most of the time.


It all depends on how you see it. Simpler technology is often (although not always) easier to fix. Vinvyl has a different sound to it than digital music as well, especially when in good condition.


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auntblabby
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09 Feb 2014, 2:57 am

abacacus wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
I find this whole discussion curious, in that I am old enough to have lived back in the days of olde when telephones were analog and you had to twist your fingers in the dial to call people up, and even back then I wondered if there ever would be something better like, maybe pushbuttons or something. I remember listening to my crackly old records and wondered if there ever would be anything with similar or better sound fidelity but no crackles, and when CDs came around I was overjoyed. my point is the in many ways the "good ol' days" were not that good most of the time.


It all depends on how you see it. Simpler technology is often (although not always) easier to fix. Vinvyl has a different sound to it than digital music as well, especially when in good condition.

my hobby is digital audio restoration, and even on virgin vinyl there is groove roar, even on fancy equipment.



abacacus
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09 Feb 2014, 3:05 am

auntblabby wrote:
abacacus wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
I find this whole discussion curious, in that I am old enough to have lived back in the days of olde when telephones were analog and you had to twist your fingers in the dial to call people up, and even back then I wondered if there ever would be something better like, maybe pushbuttons or something. I remember listening to my crackly old records and wondered if there ever would be anything with similar or better sound fidelity but no crackles, and when CDs came around I was overjoyed. my point is the in many ways the "good ol' days" were not that good most of the time.


It all depends on how you see it. Simpler technology is often (although not always) easier to fix. Vinvyl has a different sound to it than digital music as well, especially when in good condition.

my hobby is digital audio restoration, and even on virgin vinyl there is groove roar, even on fancy equipment.


Sure, but some people like that sound. I personally prefer digital music (I like music to be very crisp, clear), but not everyone does. Besides that, it's a difference, and differences are always worth keeping around, if only for the sake of novelty or comparison.


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auntblabby
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09 Feb 2014, 4:53 am

abacacus wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
abacacus wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
I find this whole discussion curious, in that I am old enough to have lived back in the days of olde when telephones were analog and you had to twist your fingers in the dial to call people up, and even back then I wondered if there ever would be something better like, maybe pushbuttons or something. I remember listening to my crackly old records and wondered if there ever would be anything with similar or better sound fidelity but no crackles, and when CDs came around I was overjoyed. my point is the in many ways the "good ol' days" were not that good most of the time.


It all depends on how you see it. Simpler technology is often (although not always) easier to fix. Vinvyl has a different sound to it than digital music as well, especially when in good condition.

my hobby is digital audio restoration, and even on virgin vinyl there is groove roar, even on fancy equipment.


Sure, but some people like that sound. I personally prefer digital music (I like music to be very crisp, clear), but not everyone does. Besides that, it's a difference, and differences are always worth keeping around, if only for the sake of novelty or comparison.

what enrages me, is when people use things like the grungelizer [a real plug-in, btw, whose purpose is to add faux-surface noise and distortion to pristine digital tracks, rappers love it for whatever reason, it ain't too far removed from "scratching"] to deliberately dirty-up clean tracks. IMHO, the people who would do such as thing are not above doing things like taking a record and listening to it using a paper cone and needle. end of rant. :x
btw, what do you think about the finial ELP laser turntable? you know, the one that uses laser beams to play the record with?



abacacus
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09 Feb 2014, 5:21 am

auntblabby wrote:
abacacus wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
abacacus wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
I find this whole discussion curious, in that I am old enough to have lived back in the days of olde when telephones were analog and you had to twist your fingers in the dial to call people up, and even back then I wondered if there ever would be something better like, maybe pushbuttons or something. I remember listening to my crackly old records and wondered if there ever would be anything with similar or better sound fidelity but no crackles, and when CDs came around I was overjoyed. my point is the in many ways the "good ol' days" were not that good most of the time.


It all depends on how you see it. Simpler technology is often (although not always) easier to fix. Vinvyl has a different sound to it than digital music as well, especially when in good condition.

my hobby is digital audio restoration, and even on virgin vinyl there is groove roar, even on fancy equipment.


Sure, but some people like that sound. I personally prefer digital music (I like music to be very crisp, clear), but not everyone does. Besides that, it's a difference, and differences are always worth keeping around, if only for the sake of novelty or comparison.

what enrages me, is when people use things like the grungelizer [a real plug-in, btw, whose purpose is to add faux-surface noise and distortion to pristine digital tracks, rappers love it for whatever reason, it ain't too far removed from "scratching"] to deliberately dirty-up clean tracks. IMHO, the people who would do such as thing are not above doing things like taking a record and listening to it using a paper cone and needle. end of rant. :x
btw, what do you think about the finial ELP laser turntable? you know, the one that uses laser beams to play the record with?


Dirtying up tracks doesn't bother me. The goal of mixing/mastering a song is to make it sound the way the artist wants it sound, whether that's the sound I care for or not.

As for the ELP laser turntable, I'd never even heard of one until now. The idea is awesome, but I'd need to play with one to make a final judgement.


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Arran
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09 Feb 2014, 8:15 am

LupaLuna wrote:
I wonder if the CRT TV will ever have a cult following 20 years from now or will it become a dead and buried technology?


There is a small but thriving market for good quality CRT TVs in Britain by videophiles who think that old TV programmes only look authentic when viewed on a CRT manufactured in the same era the programme was produced. It wasn't so long ago I had to make up an AV lead to connect to a late 1980s Hitachi that has a DIN socket instead of a SCART so its owner could use it to watch classic 80s cartoons. I also sold a Philips similar to this one with stereo speakers but no NICAM to another 80s enthusiast.



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09 Feb 2014, 11:44 am

auntblabby wrote:
I find this whole discussion curious, in that I am old enough to have lived back in the days of olde when telephones were analog and you had to twist your fingers in the dial to call people up, and even back then I wondered if there ever would be something better like, maybe pushbuttons or something. I remember listening to my crackly old records and wondered if there ever would be anything with similar or better sound fidelity but no crackles, and when CDs came around I was overjoyed. my point is the in many ways the "good ol' days" were not that good most of the time.


I remember dreaming about having a flat thin TV back in the 1980s. When LCD TV's finally came out. I was overjoyed. No more bulky back, No more curved screen and No more flicker. God I hated CRT computer monitors for that.



LupaLuna
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09 Feb 2014, 11:53 am

Arran wrote:
LupaLuna wrote:
I wonder if the CRT TV will ever have a cult following 20 years from now or will it become a dead and buried technology?


There is a small but thriving market for good quality CRT TVs in Britain by videophiles who think that old TV programmes only look authentic when viewed on a CRT manufactured in the same era the programme was produced. It wasn't so long ago I had to make up an AV lead to connect to a late 1980s Hitachi that has a DIN socket instead of a SCART so its owner could use it to watch classic 80s cartoons. I also sold a Philips similar to this one with stereo speakers but no NICAM to another 80s enthusiast.


Funny you say that. I sometime watch all my old 80's cartoons like He-man, G,I,Joe, Thundercats, Transformers, etc. on an old 1978 13inch CRT TV. BTW: That TV doesn't have AV inputs on it so I have to use a device called an "RF modulator" to convert the AV signals into channel 3. I find that the colors are more vibrant and the lines are more defined when they are viewed on a CRT. Plus you don't see all the flaws like you do on a newer TV.



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09 Feb 2014, 2:54 pm

LupaLuna wrote:
Funny you say that. I sometime watch all my old 80's cartoons like He-man, G,I,Joe, Thundercats, Transformers, etc. on an old 1978 13inch CRT TV. BTW: That TV doesn't have AV inputs on it so I have to use a device called an "RF modulator" to convert the AV signals into channel 3. I find that the colors are more vibrant and the lines are more defined when they are viewed on a CRT. Plus you don't see all the flaws like you do on a newer TV.


Much depends on quality. Some flat screens are cheap and poor quality. Others are very good.

I remember tuning a VCR recording of a cartoon through a CRT monitor and the quality was night vs. day compared to how it looked on a standard TV. This was long before HDTV, but a CRT monitor simply produced a higher resolution image than a standard TV CRT was designed to achieve. Recordings, by comparison, were of a higher quality than TVs reproduced...probably to ensure the maximum picture quality possible for whomever was watching.



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09 Feb 2014, 3:54 pm

abacacus wrote:
As for the ELP laser turntable, I'd never even heard of one until now. The idea is awesome, but I'd need to play with one to make a final judgement.

it costs as much as a new car, and requires [among other things]-

*a CEDAR declicker, because dust particles that a regular stylus pushes aside, the laser beam hits with a POW!! !
*HEPA air filtration in the home for above reason
*controlled humidity, as excessively dry climes cause static electricity makes dust very persistent, which affects playback just as it does with regular needle in groove
*no animals or their dander In the same room as the turntable which also mucks up the record grooves causing the laser to read a noisy groove
*a mechanical record cleaning machine
*a Xerostat gun
*only plays conventional black vinyl/shellac/bakelite disks. no colored or clear vinyls can be read by the lasers.



Arran
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09 Feb 2014, 4:10 pm

LupaLuna wrote:
Funny you say that. I sometime watch all my old 80's cartoons like He-man, G,I,Joe, Thundercats, Transformers, etc. on an old 1978 13inch CRT TV. BTW: That TV doesn't have AV inputs on it so I have to use a device called an "RF modulator" to convert the AV signals into channel 3. I find that the colors are more vibrant and the lines are more defined when they are viewed on a CRT. Plus you don't see all the flaws like you do on a newer TV.


It's called CRT aesthetics. The phosphors have slightly different hues to those on flat panel displays and I agree with you that a CRT tends to hide certain flaws and artifacts in the video. Remember that many cartoons were produced on cine film well into the 1980s. It's similar to the way that audiophiles say that 1960s music sounds more authentic when amplified with triodes rather than transistors. A valve amp might have a higher THD than a solid state amp but this adds a certain desirable effect to the sound of old recordings.



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09 Feb 2014, 4:18 pm

Arran wrote:
LupaLuna wrote:
Funny you say that. I sometime watch all my old 80's cartoons like He-man, G,I,Joe, Thundercats, Transformers, etc. on an old 1978 13inch CRT TV. BTW: That TV doesn't have AV inputs on it so I have to use a device called an "RF modulator" to convert the AV signals into channel 3. I find that the colors are more vibrant and the lines are more defined when they are viewed on a CRT. Plus you don't see all the flaws like you do on a newer TV.


It's called CRT aesthetics. The phosphors have slightly different hues to those on flat panel displays and I agree with you that a CRT tends to hide certain flaws and artifacts in the video. Remember that many cartoons were produced on cine film well into the 1980s. It's similar to the way that audiophiles say that 1960s music sounds more authentic when amplified with triodes rather than transistors. A valve amp might have a higher THD than a solid state amp but this adds a certain desirable effect to the sound of old recordings.

it is mainly SETs [Single-Ended Triodes] that have a euphonic coloration mainly in the form of even [primarily 2nd harmonic] order harmonic distortion which adds a treble zing to a lot of older music. only problem with 'em is that to get any power they have to be large and heavy and HOT!! ! I was in definitive hifi's very best room back in 1983 with a pair of monoblock SETs the size of dorm room refrigerators that pumped out a princely 50 watts each [lots of dynamic headroom though] but so warmed the room that people were sweating], they were powering a pair of magnaplanar tympani III panel loudspeakers the size of room dividers, and these amps were barely able to power these speakings to any useful volume. the sound was gorgeous though. one mighta thought that one had stepped into a church cathedral on a hot day, the sound of the [reproduced] liturgical organ was so convincingly reproduced. I woulda loved to hear my own music on that system.



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09 Feb 2014, 10:28 pm

Arran wrote:
LupaLuna wrote:
Funny you say that. I sometime watch all my old 80's cartoons like He-man, G,I,Joe, Thundercats, Transformers, etc. on an old 1978 13inch CRT TV. BTW: That TV doesn't have AV inputs on it so I have to use a device called an "RF modulator" to convert the AV signals into channel 3. I find that the colors are more vibrant and the lines are more defined when they are viewed on a CRT. Plus you don't see all the flaws like you do on a newer TV.


It's called CRT aesthetics. The phosphors have slightly different hues to those on flat panel displays and I agree with you that a CRT tends to hide certain flaws and artifacts in the video. Remember that many cartoons were produced on cine film well into the 1980s. It's similar to the way that audiophiles say that 1960s music sounds more authentic when amplified with triodes rather than transistors. A valve amp might have a higher THD than a solid state amp but this adds a certain desirable effect to the sound of old recordings.


It makes sense. the content of that era would be calibrated/mastered to work most efficiently with the playback devices of that time.



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09 Feb 2014, 10:50 pm

auntblabby wrote:
it is mainly SETs [Single-Ended Triodes] that have a euphonic coloration mainly in the form of even [primarily 2nd harmonic] order harmonic distortion which adds a treble zing to a lot of older music. only problem with 'em is that to get any power they have to be large and heavy and HOT!! ! I was in definitive hifi's very best room back in 1983 with a pair of monoblock SETs the size of dorm room refrigerators that pumped out a princely 50 watts each [lots of dynamic headroom though] but so warmed the room that people were sweating], they were powering a pair of magnaplanar tympani III panel loudspeakers the size of room dividers, and these amps were barely able to power these speakings to any useful volume. the sound was gorgeous though. one mighta thought that one had stepped into a church cathedral on a hot day, the sound of the [reproduced] liturgical organ was so convincingly reproduced. I woulda loved to hear my own music on that system.


Sound like to me those amps where Output TransformerLess (OTL). Horribly and ungodly inefficient devices I'll bet that each of those amps drew about 2000 watts from the wall socket just to get 50 watts out. Most tube amps have a transformer on the output stage to match the impedance of the speaker but transformers make the amp sound muddy and some audiophiles don't like that. OTL amps are a lot like driving 5mph down the road in 4th gear and riding the clutch to keep your engine rpm's up.