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Aesthete
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11 Apr 2012, 5:47 pm

I think this video does a great job of elucidating the problems the world will soon face in the years to come, and is arguably already facing. I'm sure most of you are at least somewhat familiar with concepts such as peak oil, alternatives to fossil fuels, exponential growth, etc. This video shows how concepts such as EROEI (energy returned on energy invested) and the tragedy of the commons relate and how they complicate the problems facing civilization. Put simply, the picture of human civilization the video paints is one of a bubble, with the economic system requiring nonstop growth under the assumption of unlimited energy availability, despite natural limitations.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOMWzjrRiBg[/youtube]

I think there's a lot of optimism about the future floating around out there which at times to me seems to approach naivete. There's an assumption that technology and human innovation will save the day, when in fact technology cannot provide energy. It can only channel it. And more efficient sources of energy can actually even increase consumption, as the video explains.



mglosenger
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11 Apr 2012, 11:14 pm

Even following strictly scientifically 'rational' ideas of how energy is converted, tossed around, etc, we do have the sun continually beaming energy onto us, and things flying at us from outer space.. and that's from the notoriously hard-to-convince-of-anything purely scientific viewpoint..

That said, there's more to the universe than rationally based counts of metric tonnes of this and that and that 'law of entropy' thing that some guy made up one day cuz he was depressed or something

And ALL THAT said, if the universe wants to flip itself around and do this or do that it will, regardless of past observations or best guesses or 'laws' or whatever



AstroGeek
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12 Apr 2012, 12:00 am

mglosenger wrote:
Even following strictly scientifically 'rational' ideas of how energy is converted, tossed around, etc, we do have the sun continually beaming energy onto us, and things flying at us from outer space.. and that's from the notoriously hard-to-convince-of-anything purely scientific viewpoint..

That said, there's more to the universe than rationally based counts of metric tonnes of this and that and that 'law of entropy' thing that some guy made up one day cuz he was depressed or something

And ALL THAT said, if the universe wants to flip itself around and do this or do that it will, regardless of past observations or best guesses or 'laws' or whatever

Can you please write this again, except this time make it coherent?



RazorEddie
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12 Apr 2012, 1:33 am

Unfortunately a lot of that video is correct and we are headed towards a crisis. The biggest problem is population growth. There are already too many people for the planet to support and it will only get worse.


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LookTwice
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12 Apr 2012, 5:08 pm

more info:
http://www.withouthotair.com/ (free book about transitioning from fossil fuels to renewable energies)
http://www.postcarbon.org/



mglosenger
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12 Apr 2012, 9:11 pm

AstroGeek wrote:
Can you please write this again, except this time make it coherent?


I suspect this is the sort of thing that if you understand what I mean, you already understood anyway. I've tried explaining it all many different ways and some people just don't get it. Don't worry.



ruveyn
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13 Apr 2012, 5:46 am

Aesthete wrote:
I think this video does a great job of elucidating the problems the world will soon face in the years to come, and is arguably already facing. I'm sure most of you are at least somewhat familiar with concepts such as peak oil, alternatives to fossil fuels, exponential growth, etc. This video shows how concepts such as EROEI (energy returned on energy invested) and the tragedy of the commons relate and how they complicate the problems facing civilization. Put simply, the picture of human civilization the video paints is one of a bubble, with the economic system requiring nonstop growth under the assumption of unlimited energy availability, despite natural limitations.



I think there's a lot of optimism about the future floating around out there which at times to me seems to approach naivete. There's an assumption that technology and human innovation will save the day, when in fact technology cannot provide energy. It can only channel it. And more efficient sources of energy can actually even increase consumption, as the video explains.


When the oil runs out we will use coal or nuclear generated electricity. There is plenty of thorium in the world. More than enough to generate what we need. We will develop alternative source precisely when our current sources run out or become too expensive. You will notice they when whales started to become scarce we drilled for petroleum. Its first major product was kerosine to replace whale oil.

There is no such thing as an energy shortage. There is only a shortage of cheap energy.

ruveyn