Does anybody else just not want to get a job?

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theclifford
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21 Jun 2013, 3:13 am

I can't seem to reconcile the need to work in my head. I don't want "stuff", I don't want to hop on a treadmill of ever expanding houses and cars, and I don't want to sell myself anymore. I find it really easy to get a job. I've got great credentials and I've memorized all the behavioral mechanisms necessary to blow through an interview. About 1-2 months in, I'm going to work during the day and having meltdowns at night. It doesn't matter what the job is or who I'm working for/with. I have the same exact problem with women, but this is another story.

It seems my parents and everyone else (including a lengthy list of psychiatrists and psychologists, over the years) just want me to work. I don't even know what to do anymore. Sometimes I feel like a petulant child. I know I'm intelligent and rational, but I can't figure out how to control these meltdowns. It's like this beast in my brain that punishes me for deviating from my compulsions. I'm 27 now and it seems to get worse every year, but that may be corresponding to the increasing expectation of falling into line and becoming an adult.

Anyone else feel like this? Is there some sort of coping mechanism that I can try?



hanyo
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21 Jun 2013, 6:05 am

I don't want to work either but I also wouldn't know how to get and keep a job even if I wanted one.



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21 Jun 2013, 6:09 am

I haven't managed to solve this one either; as soon as I "grew out of" the routine/rhythm which school had instilled in me, of getting up and going somewhere for 7 hours a day etc, which process of deconstruction started at uni, ( irregular lectures, non-obligatory tutorials etc ), and continued when became unemployed 3 years after that, ( after holding down two full-time jobs in a row for two and half years in total ) as a result of following a dream and failing at it, ( because of manic-depressive breakdown ) and had also accidentally discovered that I could live without a penny for 5 weeks ( sleeping rough and asking for food in bakeries, raiding bins, etc while on the road in France one summer ) ... I became unable to hold down a full-time job, and eventually ( after three years jobshare in a library brought to an end by sudden restlessness ) not even a part-time/job-share one either ... and have ended up becoming a full-time mother and part-time house"wife" financially supported by a French man who doesn't seem to mind my not working. I've "had to" stick at this job, of bringing up my son, bcause the taboo on dropping it was too huge to break.

I don't see enough point to working for money though. The 5 weeks on the road are among the most memorable and extraordinary experiences of my life.

My son ( AS too ) is nearly 14, and his Papa will probably be retiring in 2 years, when my son turns 16 ... and I feel as if I need/should be doing something, fairly soon ... but there doesn't seem to be enough reason.

I dislike most working environments, and was never lucky or able enough to find a job doing something I love and would be happy to spend hours on without supervision, so the only options are/have been jobs which I'd be doing just for the money ... erk.

I think that at some level I actually have trouble "believing" in or understanding/grasping the steps involved; that if do A, will get B ( money ) which can then get C with. It's not real enough. I've tended to just try and get the thing(s) I want directly! :) Sometimes it worked, for a while anyway! :lol

Working on organic farms for bed and board has not been much fun either ( too many weird/difficult/control-freak farmers in charge or too sensible, reasonable, "adult", people whose "goodness" and so on just makes me feel even more "feckless" etc ... and the power-dynamics in such places/vol work situations are too complicated for me ).

I have increasingly thought that if I were a man, or 15-20 years younger ( there's a usual upper age limit on new "nuns" of about 30/35 ) I would like to join a monastery/convent, where work might make more sense ... if I wasn't repelled by all the goody-two-shoes of course :lol ... because everything so wonderfully clearly organised and structured etc

I have no idea what to do about it. I have been feeling pretty desperate recently about how even my own ideas for productive/creative activity ( which could potentially lead to an income ), drawing/painting, writing, etc never lead anywhere, always without exception fizzle out and die within a few weeks of beginning them. I seem to be incapable of longterm thinking, sustained regular effort towards a distant goal, at tolerating delayed reward, etc, classic signs of disrupted/deficient dopamine and serotonin pathways, ( which may be the result of unusually permeable intestinal membranes, which is the case in a large subset/36% of people on the spectrum, allowing the large molecule food-opioids in gluten/cereal-storage-proteins and dairy to enter blood and brain ).

I've just started a "cereal/grass-family and dairy and sugar exclusion" diet again, ( I managed three years gfcf from late 2007 to February 2011, but then relapsed into "everything" ( pizza!! ! mmmmm ) for most of the last two years ), because it seems to be about the only thing that I *am* able to do for long periods of time .. and I think I did notice a slight improvement in my capacity for long-term effort etc in 2008-2010 ( including writing 62,000 words for NaNoWriMo novel writing month in 2010 ) ... even if the few slightly "larger" things that I *did* achieve still didn't lead anywhere AT ALL, which was probably why I abandoned the exclusion diet ... but ... maybe ... perhaps ... it's the *only* thing I can do to get me out of this cul-de-sac/stagnant bog/slough/rut of no progress etc which have been in for over a year now, and feels increasingly painful. :?
.



theclifford
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21 Jun 2013, 7:52 am

ouinon wrote:
I haven't managed to solve this one either; as soon as I "grew out of" the routine/rhythm which school had instilled in me, of getting up and going somewhere for 7 hours a day etc, which process of deconstruction started at uni, ( irregular lectures, non-obligatory tutorials etc ), and continued when became unemployed 3 years after that, ( after holding down two full-time jobs in a row for two and half years in total ) as a result of following a dream and failing at it, ( because of manic-depressive breakdown ) and had also accidentally discovered that I could live without a penny for 5 weeks ( sleeping rough and asking for food in bakeries, raiding bins, etc while on the road in France one summer ) ... I became unable to hold down a full-time job, and eventually ( after three years jobshare in a library brought to an end by sudden restlessness ) not even a part-time/job-share one either ... and have ended up becoming a full-time mother and part-time house"wife" financially supported by a French man who doesn't seem to mind my not working. I've "had to" stick at this job, of bringing up my son, bcause the taboo on dropping it was too huge to break.

I don't see enough point to working for money though. The 5 weeks on the road are among the most memorable and extraordinary experiences of my life.

My son ( AS too ) is nearly 14, and his Papa will probably be retiring in 2 years, when my son turns 16 ... and I feel as if I need/should be doing something, fairly soon ... but there doesn't seem to be enough reason.

I dislike most working environments, and was never lucky or able enough to find a job doing something I love and would be happy to spend hours on without supervision, so the only options are/have been jobs which I'd be doing just for the money ... erk.

I think that at some level I actually have trouble "believing" in or understanding/grasping the steps involved; that if do A, will get B ( money ) which can then get C with. It's not real enough. I've tended to just try and get the thing(s) I want directly! :) Sometimes it worked, for a while anyway! :lol

Working on organic farms for bed and board has not been much fun either ( too many weird/difficult/control-freak farmers in charge or too sensible, reasonable, "adult", people whose "goodness" and so on just makes me feel even more "feckless" etc ... and the power-dynamics in such places/vol work situations are too complicated for me ).

I have increasingly thought that if I were a man, or 15-20 years younger ( there's a usual upper age limit on new "nuns" of about 30/35 ) I would like to join a monastery/convent, where work might make more sense ... if I wasn't repelled by all the goody-two-shoes of course :lol ... because everything so wonderfully clearly organised and structured etc

I have no idea what to do about it. I have been feeling pretty desperate recently about how even my own ideas for productive/creative activity ( which could potentially lead to an income ), drawing/painting, writing, etc never lead anywhere, always without exception fizzle out and die within a few weeks of beginning them. I seem to be incapable of longterm thinking, sustained regular effort towards a distant goal, at tolerating delayed reward, etc, classic signs of disrupted/deficient dopamine and serotonin pathways, ( which may be the result of unusually permeable intestinal membranes, which is the case in a large subset/36% of people on the spectrum, allowing the large molecule food-opioids in gluten/cereal-storage-proteins and dairy to enter blood and brain ).

I've just started a "cereal/grass-family and dairy and sugar exclusion" diet again, ( I managed three years gfcf from late 2007 to February 2011, but then relapsed into "everything" ( pizza!! ! mmmmm ) for most of the last two years ), because it seems to be about the only thing that I *am* able to do for long periods of time .. and I think I did notice a slight improvement in my capacity for long-term effort etc in 2008-2010 ( including writing 62,000 words for NaNoWriMo novel writing month in 2010 ) ... even if the few slightly "larger" things that I *did* achieve still didn't lead anywhere AT ALL, which was probably why I abandoned the exclusion diet ... but ... maybe ... perhaps ... it's the *only* thing I can do to get me out of this cul-de-sac/stagnant bog/slough/rut of no progress etc which have been in for over a year now, and feels increasingly painful. :?
.


Reading through this, you echoed most of my own thoughts. I bolded the part that really stuck out for me. For the life of me, I cannot understand this whole system and why it is even bought into. The few things that I want, I end up building. Its like there is this distinct cognitive lapse in play that prevents me from understanding or accepting this whole scheme.

Maybe it is the subconscious constriction that weighs heavier than the gain from the exchange of labor for wants. Maybe the freedom to be and do what I want falls under the needs category, which is inherently more powerful than wants. If so, then the struggle lies in the practicality of this need. The NT majority simply doesn't understand how someone can place this freedom over everything else.

In any effect, the practical solution seems rooted in either:

A) Playing the game and paying your dues - Probably something akin to obtaining financial freedom in order to (over time) alleviate the pressure to fall into such a system. The downside, for me, is obviously the immediate and residual impact of meltdowns.
B) Staying at odds with the world - Not buying into the whole deal and living a life outside of NT pressure. The extreme of this would be walking the path of a "bum". The major downside here is that I can't pursue my wants and interests.

My interests come so intensely and then just fall off the map, so it is very difficult to orient a career around them. Like yourself, I pursue something and am driven for a short while. I tend to accumulate a wealth of knowledge about a subject, thinking I can pursue productivity in that field. When I've absorbed enough, I rarely have the means to commit the knowledge to practice and then the interest wanes. I'm stuck between A and B, without the ability to control myself in either direction. I don't want a job, I want a life. I want the freedom to create and learn. This seems to be completely at odds with society.

My apologies if I'm rambling.



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21 Jun 2013, 7:59 am

ouinon wrote:
I haven't managed to solve this one either; as soon as I "grew out of" the routine/rhythm which school had instilled in me, of getting up and going somewhere for 7 hours a day etc


That is part of the problem I have with working. I never got into that rhythm. After sixth grade every year I missed extremely large amounts of days and even having to go to family court and getting sent away multiple times wasn't enough to make me go. I just wanted to stay at home.



theclifford
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21 Jun 2013, 8:21 am

hanyo wrote:
I don't want to work either but I also wouldn't know how to get and keep a job even if I wanted one.


Getting and keeping a job is very easy if you address it from a logical standpoint. NTs have extraneous (and IMO unnecessary) expectations from their relationships. All you have to do is meet these expectations. This may require a lot of practice, but it gets easier with application.

When I was younger, I had a horrible time with women. I couldn't understand cues or figure out what to say and when to say it. This may sound ridiculous, but I watched a lot of movies. I took notes about behaviors and facial expressions. I mimicked traits, expressions, and phrasing, from desirable male actors and memorized responses. I applied in a very logical and, at times, algorithmic, approach to conversation. If you address social behavior as a constant, you can produce reactions that maximize potential response success. It worked very well for me.

I applied the same thing to job interviews and workplace behavior. I used many of the same behaviors that I learned through movies, and applied them to the workplace. Do I really know what an NT is feeling? No. But I have learned the appropriate response to produce a favorable reaction. In retrospect, this was an easy process. It can also be a very time consuming process.

I've always felt that a lot of the high functioning people on the spectrum are hung up on their accepting of social behavior, so they skip over the behavior. "Why would they have such-and-such reaction to what I'm saying?" "Why is it important that I do such-and-such?" This is a very confusing and non-productive way of addressing the "problem". I still have no idea what a woman wants or what an interviewer/co-worker wants, but I know if their face does such-and-such that I need to adapt my tone or do some stupid body language. And really... deep down inside I think the whole thing is stupid. Why can't they accept us for who we are? What is wrong with how we act or think? Why isn't the right way of doing something valued over the "right" way of talking/acting? Well, it doesn't really matter. They have expectations, and in order to get favorable reactions we must meet those expectations.

If you can identify the tells, you can fake your way through anything. You will always be considered "different". You may never understand why NTs do what they do, or what it all really means, or even how to convey your emotional bearing. But you'll be far better suited for positive interactions. Upon copious amounts of practice and application, I've found most NT persons to be highly predictable and requiring of extremely similar reactions to produce these positive interactions.



theclifford
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21 Jun 2013, 8:27 am

hanyo wrote:
ouinon wrote:
I haven't managed to solve this one either; as soon as I "grew out of" the routine/rhythm which school had instilled in me, of getting up and going somewhere for 7 hours a day etc


That is part of the problem I have with working. I never got into that rhythm. After sixth grade every year I missed extremely large amounts of days and even having to go to family court and getting sent away multiple times wasn't enough to make me go. I just wanted to stay at home.


In a way, that is probably a good thing. At least you've established the way you are. You've set a standard of expectations. Especially for late diagnosed Aspies, once you've adhered to that rhythm then you're expected to maintain it. For me, it has gotten harder and harder to meet the expectations. The amount of meltdowns I have now, compared to a decade ago when I was 17/18 is far greater. It is like the mental conflict has accelerated over time. At this point in my life, I am at a crossroads where I absolutely CANNOT continue with a traditional NT work lifestyle.



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21 Jun 2013, 11:31 am

theclifford wrote:
I can't seem to reconcile the need to work in my head. I don't want "stuff", I don't want to hop on a treadmill of ever expanding houses and cars, and I don't want to sell myself anymore. I find it really easy to get a job. I've got great credentials and I've memorized all the behavioral mechanisms necessary to blow through an interview. About 1-2 months in, I'm going to work during the day and having meltdowns at night. It doesn't matter what the job is or who I'm working for/with. I have the same exact problem with women, but this is another story.

It seems my parents and everyone else (including a lengthy list of psychiatrists and psychologists, over the years) just want me to work. I don't even know what to do anymore. Sometimes I feel like a petulant child. I know I'm intelligent and rational, but I can't figure out how to control these meltdowns. It's like this beast in my brain that punishes me for deviating from my compulsions. I'm 27 now and it seems to get worse every year, but that may be corresponding to the increasing expectation of falling into line and becoming an adult.

Anyone else feel like this? Is there some sort of coping mechanism that I can try?


Yes, except I go to work whether I want to or not. As bad as work is, I think it's worse to be a burden to others. We aspies should support ourselves whenever possible. The fact that too many of us don't explains in part why aspies have such a bad reputation. When one person receives something they didn't earn, it means somebody else earned something they never received. It's a guaranteed recipe for conflict.



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21 Jun 2013, 1:20 pm

I work because I hate to be a burden on society or on others, and I do enjoy the feeling of independence in providing for myself -- but my dearest wish is that I could be independently wealthy and never have to leave the house again if I didn't want to. Seriously. I've always been that way, just wanted to be at home doing my own thing and not dealing with people if I didn't want to.

By the way, just want to say, if anyone is or has to depend on help and benefit payments, I totally understand and I do not judge that at all; it's just me myself who felt really bad during a period when I had to have those too for a while, and I'd rather work than have that, but I'm not knocking those who do receive financial help because they can't work. I totally understand and wouldn't knock that.

I actually spent years of my life, following school, living at home with my parents and being supported by them because I just couldn't handle the thought of going out daily to a job. I was never diagnosed because I was the generation where they didn't even address stuff like this, but my sister married a social worker and I think he always knew what might really be going on with me, I recently realized.

What eventually made me find a job was that I had dreams to travel and I eventually made those reality. But I've never been able to keep a job for long -- the social dynamic with co-workers and bosses always started out fine then turned several kinds of sour and I would always quit. I then became self employed and have stuck at that for twenty years, because my work now is almost completely solitary.

But if I won the lottery or suddenly inherited bigtime from a mystery relative? I'd quit yesterday. As long as it's my own money I'm living from....but yes, I wish that didn't have to entail work, tax returns, going out and dealing with the world out there when I don't feel like it. I would love to not have to.



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21 Jun 2013, 1:34 pm

theclifford wrote:
About 1-2 months in, I'm going to work during the day and having meltdowns at night. It doesn't matter what the job is or who I'm working for/with.


Would you feel differently if you didn't end up having meltdowns every day? Would you want a job then? If so, it doesn't sound like it's just a matter of not wanting to work.

theclifford wrote:
Is there some sort of coping mechanism that I can try?


That depends on why you have meltdowns. What do you mean when you say "deviating from [your] compulsions"?


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21 Jun 2013, 10:00 pm

animalcrackers wrote:
theclifford wrote:
About 1-2 months in, I'm going to work during the day and having meltdowns at night. It doesn't matter what the job is or who I'm working for/with.


Would you feel differently if you didn't end up having meltdowns every day? Would you want a job then? If so, it doesn't sound like it's just a matter of not wanting to work.

theclifford wrote:
Is there some sort of coping mechanism that I can try?


That depends on why you have meltdowns. What do you mean when you say "deviating from [your] compulsions"?


If I wasn't having meltdowns, than work would be okay. I'm having meltdowns because I'm going to work. I'm not learning anything that I was compelled to learn, in the time I'm at work. I despise repetitive tasks. I have a really hard time with waiting for other people to catch up with me. I don't let anyone know that. If I had a reason to do this, like I used to, then I'd get on well. But I don't.

I spent 4.5 years in the Army. I got out, got a few jobs, and quit every single one of them within 1-2 months. I don't see a reason to go to work because I don't want to be on a wage treadmill and give up my time, so I'm assuming my brain rioting in response to this. Enter meltdown. My time has always been valuable to me, because I have random compulsions to dig into certain topics. do stuff, or learn something.



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21 Jun 2013, 10:16 pm

After a lifetime of messing up relationships at work I decided to try something new. So I chose not to disagree, not to speak unless spoken to and gradually worked my way into my work environment. I did have the occasional meltdown but my colleagues were my friends at that point and my job is stressful for neurotypicals too so I managed to mask it a bit.

The best way I found to decrease melt downs is to stop replaying the tape in my head of the thing that irritated me. Its the repeated replay of the incident that gets me into meltdown mode. Try thinking of something else and that might help to break the pattern. I got the advice from a counsellor and it works.



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21 Jun 2013, 10:16 pm

You might be interested in this article: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2006/0 ... get-a-job/

Part of me likes to suffer and be a slave, though. :P


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21 Jun 2013, 10:18 pm

theclifford wrote:
If I wasn't having meltdowns, than work would be okay. I'm having meltdowns because I'm going to work. I'm not learning anything that I was compelled to learn, in the time I'm at work. I despise repetitive tasks. I have a really hard time with waiting for other people to catch up with me. I don't let anyone know that. If I had a reason to do this, like I used to, then I'd get on well. But I don't.

I spent 4.5 years in the Army. I got out, got a few jobs, and quit every single one of them within 1-2 months. I don't see a reason to go to work because I don't want to be on a wage treadmill and give up my time, so I'm assuming my brain rioting in response to this. Enter meltdown. My time has always been valuable to me, because I have random compulsions to dig into certain topics. do stuff, or learn something.


Would it help if you had a job related to your compulsions? Or do your compulsions change too much for that to help?

What if you had a job where you controlled your schedule and/or the pace you worked at?


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21 Jun 2013, 11:47 pm

animalcrackers wrote:
theclifford wrote:
About 1-2 months in, I'm going to work during the day and having meltdowns at night. It doesn't matter what the job is or who I'm working for/with.


Would you feel differently if you didn't end up having meltdowns every day? Would you want a job then? If so, it doesn't sound like it's just a matter of not wanting to work.

theclifford wrote:
Is there some sort of coping mechanism that I can try?


That depends on why you have meltdowns. What do you mean when you say "deviating from [your] compulsions"?


I'm having meltdowns when I'm working, because I don't want to work. My mind attaches itself to projects and subjects where I just want learn everything I can, and meltdowns come when I choose work over what my mind is pushing me to do . Thus compulsion. I thought obsessive behavioral and intellectual pursuits were a common trait for person with AS?



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22 Jun 2013, 12:12 am

MathGirl wrote:
You might be interested in this article: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2006/0 ... get-a-job/

Part of me likes to suffer and be a slave, though. :P


Nice article. Now I just want to stick it to the man! :twisted:

None of me likes the idea of being a slave. It's funny you picked that word, because that is the most common word that pops into my head when I think about this stuff.