Chrono Trigger and FF6: very, very overrated

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Hahaha.. No modern game approaches this. Only the really oldschool NES games, early PC games or arcade games are challenging.

The last 10 years of console garbage is the furthest thing you can get from thinking and challenge. Halo's rechargable shield, two weapon limits, dumbed down consolified gameplay. I'll take take Quake 3 or UT2004 thanks over most modern shooters anyday.

Japanese RPG makers have always had a non-game aspect to many of their games, it's the same problem modern western developers are suffering now - they are too obsessed with stuffing movies into games (Call of duty, Mass effect, etc) instead of focusing on gameplay.

Most modern AAA games while entertaining have no replay value, you're there for the story bits and the tired action tropes and then toss it. A game like civilization is a real gamers game. Something you can go back to and play over again and get sucked in all over again.

Memory size was very limited back then, so games were made like that to artificially increase their length by forcing you to play the same level over and over.

This is an excuse, there were plenty of complex games back then. Just because you didn't play them doesn't mean they don't exist. You're reasoning from your limited gaming repertoire and it's showing.

It's pretty funny how you pretend to know things about me even though you don't know anything. I was just pointing out that many old games would have been over super quick if you didn't keep dying repeatedly.

By the way I've gotten through tons of old NES and SNES games many of them were very difficult.

Back in the days I really loved Chrono Trigger for two reasons:

1. The previous generations of RPGs were either just text or, like Dragon Warrior, you had to beat the same enemy a hundred times so that you level up before you could move into the next area. CT was a little more diverse than that.

2. It was easy to understand, easy to play and fairly easy to beat which made it a great beginners game. But I can understand why a hardcore gamer might shun it. (Heh, try the Ranma and Sailor Moon RPGs for SNES, now THOSE were too easy even for a beginner)

I though Vampire: The Masquerade - Redemption was fairly challenging and had a good story (if you´re not aversed to vampires). It did feature some useless spells though.

As much as I love Oblivion I have to say that after I got the hang of how to fight and found the right strategy for choosing main skills and when to level up it was a pure cakewalk.

No thanks. I hate movies. I prefer great stories in the form of books and video games for the immersion elements. I usually can't sit still long enough to watch an entire movie.

I require a good story to motivate me to pick up a controller in the first place. I don't care about "game play" if I don't have a decent story to keep me motivated.



What "challenge?" Video games were never anything more to me than sitting in front of the television and flicking my thumbs. I fail to see what was so "challenging" about so-called "retro games." Having a cartoon character jumping around from platform to platform, avoiding fire balls, and dying every ten seconds? Lame.

I didn't give a crap about Mario or Sonic, or Zelda. They did not make me "think." They were good for 30 minute distractions, but I never cared much beyond that. Next generation consoles offer a much better opportunity for me to experience video games as an art form and story-telling medium, but I'm always amused by the implication that those of us who gravitate towards "easy," story-focused games are "less smart." Liking next gen consoles isn't the "cool" thing, but I just can't pretend to give a rat's a$$ about boring 2D retro side-scrollers where my biggest "challenge" was not falling off a ledge.

If I want a "challenge," I run a marathon or add more weight to the bar during a bench press. Button-flicking with my thumbs has never been part of my vision of what denotes a "challenge" or what indicates "intelligence."

In the meantime, I'll be eagerly awaiting "Mass Effect 3."

I was A Genesis/Megadrive owner when I was growing up so missed out on the so-called RPG master peices of the 16 Bit era. Decided to get FFVI through PSN because of all the great things I had heard about the snes era games, now I have it I'm stuck. I get to the point where I have to use sabin's blitz for the first time and no matter what I do can can not get it to work. I do not know if it is me, the emulated version of the game or the ps3 controller.

I'd agree with you that the old games had a sort of ambience and mystique that really had an artistic 'something'. Seems like the guys/girls who did 8 bit, made the boards, the music, etc. used everything they had to the hilt.

Dragon Warrior I was the first RPG I played, loved it, albeit I liked the single-character traveling around more than I was into the teamwork bit. By the time I got a Sega Genesis in 4th grade and got Phantasy Star II and Might & Magic I wasn't minding it so much albeit there's some of that. PSII seemed to keep the weapon and skill variety excess low to the grount and to tell the truth, in those kinds of games where you don't make your character anyway I wasn't too worried about making my own style, my own weapons, and trying to make Tiger Woods PGA golf characters with it.

IMHO it seems like with every new advancement you have translation struggles in terms of how the game is presented, how its played, how the graphics and ambience in the games work, and for a while I was really getting turned off by a lot of what consoles like PS3 were doing just because of how 'busy' so many games get when you're trying to grab the attention of kids with 12 shiny things on the screen at once.

Part of why I'm liking Skyrim a lot for PC - even though its frightfully easy and its getting a lot of shots from people about its skill set and battle systems - its got some major things going for it. Like the ambience, like open space, like the ability to go into odd corners of the map, go into a cabin, press a button in the basement and find a big labyrinth, and most importantly it lacks one of the things that I absolutely hated about Guild Wars - the busywork of having strong enemy groups who could topple you and yours every 30 or 40 yards. TBH, when you get to EOTN and start getting deeper into those quests you not only play most of the game with 60% health and magic penalty, you have to run from many groups simply because they're too powerful, you're capped too low at lvl 20, and no matter how well you try to peel monsters off those groups with tanking it just takes one misstep by an NPC on your team to wreck an hour of work.

The good thing is; as user-created game mods get to be more and more popular I'm hoping that'll send some incredibly clear flags to game designers on what gamers are looking for. In that sense you may have some really phenomenal RPGs coming out by 2014 that have excellent battle systems, excellent explorable maps, excellent skill trees, and where it seems like they've just about dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's. Looking at history that may be a bit overoptimistic but, I get the impression that the capacity will be there.

The only thing I get a bit nervous about though is the new 3D and virtual reality bit we're starting to get into. That will, as it becomes the hot new thing, set off a whole new wave of utterly crap games which just don't meet the environment well. Hopefully they'll find some form or artistry that works well with that but who knows, I guess we won't be seeing that up close and personal for a while to come.

Except for the underlined portion (which I included to answer the question presented), this sums up my feelings pretty well. I lack the attention span required to watch a whole movie in one sitting and it feels wrong taking a break in the middle so I go to things like video games and anime (if for no other reason than American TV's fear of the three-act plot structure) that offer plots in much more immersive (in the case of games) or concise (in the case of anime). I do enjoy gameplay, but it doesn't make up the main draw most of the time. I still do play platformers, though, and turn-based strategy/SRPG's are about the only genre I really love the gameplay of.

I never did play FFVI, but I can say that even though I never got the chance to play CT until the ds port was released, I do understand why it's widely considered to be a masterpiece. It's different from most jrpgs from the time, and even in general. Traveling back and forth in time was really satisfying, and I really liked the storyline. It was full of twists and turns, and though it was about preventing the apocalypse, it was more the way the heroes went about it that made it stand out to me. Who was expecting the main character to die? I can't think of another rpg that has done that. The music score is fantastic, and the graphics, though simple, don't feel as dated as I would have expected from a game that old. I really like its art style actually. The animation is top notch for character sprites of that nature, the colours and backgrounds look decent enough, and I'd say it looks way better than the awful early 3d textures of FFVII.

CT found a way to eliminate random encounters while still retaining turn based battles long before it was more widely experimented with around the end of the last decade. In fact, it was a good decade before Persona 3 kicked off that trend of having enemies represented on screen, and battles being initiated depending on how they're engaged(a trend that made its way into many rpgs of that era, including those on handhelds, or on the then recently released current gen consoles). CT also perfected the multiple ending mechanic long before it became widely popular. Keep in mind, devs are still fumbling around with that mechanic in an attempt to perfect it. Catherine and Heavy Rain are the only modern games I've played that have managed to use that mechanic reasonably well, and even so, CT got it right in '96.

I respect the OP's opinion, but I really like this game. Keep in mind that since I didn't play it back in the day, I went into it not knowing what to expect, and formed my impressions of it in the context of games I had played around that time(which I suppose was inevitable). I could also see the influence Persona 3, one of my favourite games of last gen, had drawn from it.

As for FFVII, I never played that back in the day either. I checked it out a year or two ago, but man, that's a game that hasn't aged well at all. It's definitely a beginner's rpg(it even has a tutorial on how to play an rpg), and I suppose it is a great game for a beginner to jump into, so it does its job right. It just isn't challenging at all to an rpg veteran. The story is ok, but I wouldn't call it the greatest, even of that era. FFVIII actually took advantage of the ps1's hardware, and so, looked way better, and it was clearly designed as an rpg for an rpg veteran that was meant to be played by someone who knew what they were doing, and as a result, I enjoyed it a lot more.

If there's a FF that I think is highly overrated though, I'd go with FFIV. Its story was ok, but is definitely a product of its time. It had no customization, so the player had to use pre-set job classes, and therefore, there was no room for error. Any challenge could be easily solved by grinding. The augment system was the only way to customize a character other than switching out their equipment, and even then, it only had a 1 in 5 chance of working, assuming I was able to acquire an augment in the first place. How was I supposed to guess that Cecil was the only character who could use cry? I wasted it on Rosa. Needless to say, I immediately turned off my ds, and haven't gone back FFIV since. At least the materia system from FFVII worked. If I wanted to give someone ability in that game, there was a 100% chance that they'd be able to use it. Nothing about FFIV was satisfying to me, and when that one seemingly small thing frustrated me, I decided to stop wasting my time with that game.

I definitely agree to the first bolded section...and has made my decision to buy mainly DS/PSP offerings whilst the consoles get the Call of Duty's and FIFAs of the market.

Valkyria is so amazing that SEGA didn't localise the thrid game on the PSP to the west...so I am guessing the second game didn't do that well here (despite the gameplay being awesome, the story was very animu).

Xenoblade is also amazing and I am happy to have put in 150 hours into that game, going into it thinking it'll be an average RPG due to Monolith Softs non-existant track record in the UK.

Speaking of SEGA, they've hit the nail on the head this generation by pricing their games into certain tiers...so that they become steadily cheaper as the fans buy the games when they think it is at "that" value...plus they have improved Sonic's Output as well as taken on Platinum Games' Contract to them giving them the attention when the games do well (Bayonetta and Vanquished being two of them).

No as for an answer to the question; no, the games aren't over-rated, it's like saying Football is over-rated and TV is over-rated....just because you may not like the games doesn't mean the vast majority didn't...we can all agree that FFVI had flaws (Blindness being irrelevant and the Vanish/Doom glitch) but the game was very solid overall. Chrono Trigger is an acquired taste, but many people loved it for what it was.

This topic feels like I am listening to a discussion in one of my D&D groups of yore about the benefits and shortcomings of playing a more roleplay-centric campaign vs a die rolling fest of constant combat... you will never please everyone. As someone said previously, it is the ambiance of the games - the whole package. A relateable, interesting story. An interesting combat system that doesn't leave you bored after the first three hours (i.e. Jade Empire). Epic, sweeping soundtracks that haunt you for the rest of your life. Forcing you to care about the characters you are controlling on the screen.

(Aside - Jeez guys, Menzoberranzan, Pools of Radiance, Eye of the Beholder, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale... not even one mention of these gems of RPG epicness)

Say what you will about whatever shortcomings you perceive in relation to FF6 and Chrono Trigger, but these two games of the end of the SNES era hit every one of these marks, and this is why they eternally top every "Greatest RPG of all time" list. FF4 tried, but it felt more like the practice round for FF6 than a game you could really get behind. There were a few others in that era - Earthbound, Tales (though the greatest in the Tales series came much later, Symphonia), Lufia I/II, Mario RPG (which I'd put at #3 for the SNES), but none of these had the whole package in one.

FF6 had two real focii that people seem to have gravitated toward: Celes/Locke, a classic love opera that had everything from a dead fiancee to an actual opera, and the Terra issue of being afraid of your potential. These are stories based off of real feelings, something that every modern day RPG seems to lack. JRPGs have turned into a playable anime flick, and western rpgs all seem to be action-oriented or fused with an FPS. Chrono Trigger hit an even deeper note with its target audience - the unknowing teen hero discovery story, with a twist of deep sadness and loss as the main protagonist actually dies in this story (details and resurrections aside, this hit a very disturbing subconscious nerve with my 12 year old self, and CT will remain as the most emotionally moving game I've ever experienced).

FWIW, I think that the following generation had just as many quality RPGs. I think that Chrono Cross was actually a better overall game than FF6/CT. It had a soundtrack that I still listen to daily, and required three playthroughs of a very long game to complete your character collection. Xenogears was another epic masterpiece that never gets the recognition it deserves. Final Fantasy Tactics - I've spent more hours of my life on this game than I have doing any other single activity... ever. And this plays to another point I'd like to make...

RPGs are designed to be accessible. Stop going into them expecting a challenge, because it isn't going to happen for 99% of the time you expect it. The game designers want it to be difficult enough to remain enjoyable, while not locking any of its playerbase out of experiencing the whole story. So, what do we do about this? Limit yourself and make it more difficult if its that big of a deal to you. Its most likely a single player game, and if you know it is going to be easy as hell to Genji+Offering, then don't do it! PRIME example on the Final Fantasy Tactics front - This game was stupidly easy. I beat it in 2 days. I put the thing down, picked it back up a week later, and did the same thing again. But then, I got to thinking, what if I didn't sit on Mandalia Plains and level up to Ninja right away... I bet the game would be harder and more fun. What if I tried only using a few classes, or not duplicating Excalibur for my whole team, or any number of other things. Eventually, I found the Single Character Challenges, and I've still yet to complete Calculator, but this extended the life of a game I received on my 13th birthday into my 28th year. The only other game I've been playing for 15 years is Civilization, and they have gone through five of those now. My point is, make the game more challenging for yourself, because you are the only one you are playing with. Another example: Skyrim. Skyrim has given me hope for the future. When I crank the difficulty up to max and toss a couple mods on it, Skyrim is more challenging as any game I've played in the last 10 years. If you find the game too easy, try a new approach. I played through on normal as a destruction caster with a suit of -%mana cost, and it was boring. Why were my friends all having so much fun with it? I rerolled, jacked the difficulty up to Master, and tried hacking my way through the game with a two-hander. You know what? This game is excruciatingly hard now. I've been on this character off-and-on since December, and I've barely progressed into the main quest line at all.

To finish, RPGs are what you make out of them. Posting a topic about how dumb people are for thinking FF6/CT are epic games, when it seems like you are disconnected with most other RPG veterans (as evidenced by every Best RPG contest in internet history that hasn't been won by Final Fantasy 7), has come down to these two games. Instead of calling us all the shortsighted ones, why not make an effort to find out what we see in these games and why they mean so much to us (even to this day)... perhaps you'll find a touch of nostalgia for the same types of feelings as well.

I think you nailed it. No matter how good a game's battle engine is, no matter how realistic the NPC's and their reactions to things are, you really don't have anything unless you have both a great ambiance and the right amount of murky and/or pensive aspects in the story.

Personally I found Final fantasy tactics hard, and as a fact never finished it. Confusing story too. And what this thing about Skyrim be too easy? I guess it may be because I don't have your brain...

To come back on subject... Crono Trigger got time travel, robots, killer robots, knights, undeads, a magician who look like a vampire, a flying fortress, flying islands, dinosaurs, cave men, lost civilisations, magic, a technologicaly advanced factory, giants bugs, ride on pterodactyl, prison escape, steamboat, a magitek base, a evil computer and so on. What do you ask more?

I just started crono trigger and so far I find it a great rpg. So many RPGs your options are limited (talk to this person and get item.cget item talk to person both end with same) in this game all the options I have done change the story.

Agreed. To be fair, even most rpgs that are widely considered challenging can be made easy if you have the time and patience to do a whole ton of grinding. I only call an rpg hard if I can max out my characters, and still find it challenging. The only series I can recall that actually fits that description is the Etrian Odyssey series on the ds, and even then, that's only for the post game. I guess the main game is semi-challenging, but any rpg veteran should be able to tackle it. Certain retro rpgs, particularly from the 8-bit era, can be considered challenging by some, but they're mistaking challenge for pacing. They can require a great deal more side lvling than most modern rpgs, just so that one's party can be competent when facing off against the enemies in the next area. They require a lot of patience for that reason. But someone with a whole ton more patience can do a whole ton more side lvling, and eventually make the game easy. I don't typically look for a challenge when I play an rpg though.





I do this sort of thing sometimes. FFXII can be a semi-challenging game every time, if it's played my way. Certainly not as challenging as the ds port of the real FFIII, but there is room for it to be. I typically stop at two points and gain 10 lvls on the side to make it easier on myself, but still end up beating the game with all the characters only around lvl 46.



To be fair, not everyone shares the same opinion on things. In fact, I think the world would be a boring place if everyone agreed on everything. I've been known to disagree with the common opinion on things from time to time(I like FFXII, but don't like FFIV, wrap your head around that one). In this case though, I agree with the general opinion that CT is a great game. It may shock some people, but I've only been playing jrpgs since '06. I only consider myself a rpg veteran, because I threw myself into the deep end when I did take up playing jrpgs, and so, can handle a lot of rpgs that many consider challenging, and have actually gone back and played retro rpgs. It is inevitable that I look through these games with a different lens, due to having no nostalgic ties to them, and having played plenty of modern games. However, I can appreciate a good classic rpg, and have actually enjoyed most of the 8 and 16 bit ones I've experienced.

I do try to see why a game is popular though, even if I don't like it. I think people love FFVII for two reasons. I've heard that FFVII was the first jrpg that many people played, and I can understand having a soft spot for one's first anything. It was designed as a beginner jrpg, so it was perfect for people at the time, who hadn't played a jrpg, to jump into it, and learn what the big fuss was about the genre. Apparently FFVIII wasn't too popular at the time, and I think I can see why. It's definitely a jrpg for those who really know what they're doing, and grasp all the basics well enough that they don't have to think about them. People who had just been introduced to the genre through its predecessor probably would have found it really difficult and/or needlessly complicated. On the flip side though, someone more experienced can get more enjoyment out of VIII, because it's a slight departure from the same hackneyed formula. However, I don't think the time was right for a game like that, considering how many people had just recently hopped on the jrpg bandwagon, and was different than the game that served as the gateway for that particular audience.

The other reason, I think, is that it was the first 3d FF, and at the start of the 64 bit era, 3d was a huge thing(note, I'm talking about 3d polygons, not the kind of 3d provided by modern tvs and systems). I don't know anyone who didn't skip over the 32 bit era(myself included), and when games like Super Mario 64 dropped, they were jaw dropping, by comparison to 16 bit games. Unfortunately, games from that era didn't age nearly as well as 16 bit games like CT, especially FFVII. In fact, I think time has been more unkind to FFVII than most other FF. I had a discussion with a friend, who said that it was because of the character models, and now that I think about it, I think he's right. The still backgrounds still look fine. Still, FFVIII is a much prettier game, and that's from not much later in the same era. At the time though, I'm sure the fact that it was in 3d was a huge thing. Of course, people nowadays don't fondly remember it due to it being impressive to look at now, but because it must have been impressive at the time, it left an impression on them, which is why they might look at it fondly.

Ok, objectively speaking, there's no FF more overrated than VII. It's just not possible. But, I do like VII a bit more than I like IV, and IV also has a huge cult following. I hear IV is popular because, at the time, the story was a cut above almost every other game story. I don't know about that. I wouldn't call the story bad. Maybe it's just that games have come out since that have had better stories. On the other hand, I did enjoy Phantasy Star II's story a lot more. Maybe the quality of its story is purely subjective. I guess it didn't help that I missed the options offered by FFIII's job class system, and found it boring to use classes pre-determined by the game's developers, removing all room for error that III at least had, which I suppose granted it some challenge that was absent in IV.