heaven- what is it? who believes in it? and why/why not?

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techstepgenr8tion
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21 Feb 2010, 11:22 pm

auntblabby wrote:
wow, man, that was heavy. btw, i'm a half@$$ed determinist also, having major issues with so-called "free will"- but in my flights of imagination, i can also imagine god him/herself being bound by the laws of his universes and ultimately of the hyperverse, and that there are gods yet higher, on to infinity.

Ah... as in the 'God' we know as God is not the real 'God' but simply a lower derivative of creation flowing from a source so high and unknowable that even our 'God' great grandparents and great great grandparents (escalating in power the closer to origin) had to fumble around in the dark to find him much like we are right here and now on this earth...

You sound like someone who might want to read the Tripartite Tractate, in fact I'd highly recommend it to you.


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PLA
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22 Feb 2010, 5:37 am

auntblabby wrote:
PLA wrote:
I'd be pretty grumpy if I found out that the universe had just been pulling an elaborate prank on me for all these years. :)


wha? you mean it HASN'T?

I mean if it jumps out after the curtain has dropped, to say: "Naaah, just kidding!"

Descartes wrote:
I've always wondered what you were going to do in Heaven for all eternity.

According to some descriptions, sit in a circle around God and tell him how awesome he is. It should be noted, though, that the same sources typically claim that looking at God really will be the greatest show ever.

Sand wrote:
Part of real fun is real danger which means getting hurt or killed.Not in heaven. It's a bore.

"[H]urt or killed" is too specific for me. I have fun just tossing a ball into the air with a risk of not catching it. :)

@ The super-god issue: A demiurge, then? Or more of a straight delegation of labour?


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auntblabby
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22 Feb 2010, 11:04 am

[/quote]You sound like someone who might want to read the Tripartite Tractate, in fact I'd highly recommend it to you.[/quote]

i am flattered [and feeling very inadequate to the esteem] that you would consider me of the brainpower level requisite for comprehending such a profound work. maybe if i took a bunch of concertas and strateras my brain might speed up sufficient to make some headway regarding intellectual challenges such as the metaphysical tome "Tripartite Tractate." but i never even graduated from college, i was too ADD'led to function there. i can barely hold my own being a hermit. but thank you.



Sand
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22 Feb 2010, 12:08 pm

PLA wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
PLA wrote:
I'd be pretty grumpy if I found out that the universe had just been pulling an elaborate prank on me for all these years. :)


wha? you mean it HASN'T?

I mean if it jumps out after the curtain has dropped, to say: "Naaah, just kidding!"

Descartes wrote:
I've always wondered what you were going to do in Heaven for all eternity.

According to some descriptions, sit in a circle around God and tell him how awesome he is. It should be noted, though, that the same sources typically claim that looking at God really will be the greatest show ever.

Sand wrote:
Part of real fun is real danger which means getting hurt or killed.Not in heaven. It's a bore.

"[H]urt or killed" is too specific for me. I have fun just tossing a ball into the air with a risk of not catching it. :)

@ The super-god issue: A demiurge, then? Or more of a straight delegation of labour?


If you can toss and catch a ball for eternity and find it fun rather than punishment you differ radically from me. Not an insult, merely an observation.



techstepgenr8tion
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22 Feb 2010, 12:11 pm

auntblabby wrote:
i am flattered [and feeling very inadequate to the esteem] that you would consider me of the brainpower level requisite for comprehending such a profound work. maybe if i took a bunch of concertas and strateras my brain might speed up sufficient to make some headway regarding intellectual challenges such as the metaphysical tome "Tripartite Tractate." but i never even graduated from college, i was too ADD'led to function there. i can barely hold my own being a hermit. but thank you.


The good news is its not going anywhere - chew on it for a month, a year, as long as you like. Thankfully its not particularly long. At least you can make up your own mind whether it has higher value or whether its simply bronze-aged psychobabble. Then again, IMO, psychobabble even on a larger scale - as coded as it might be - still has a lot of meaning about the internal reality of the human condition.


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22 Feb 2010, 12:53 pm

My mind is the functions of my brain. When my brain no longer functions, there is no mind. No conscience. I cannot logically justify a belief in an afterlife of any sort. That doesn't mean I believe that "everything goes dark", because "dark" is an experience, and I cannot experience "dark" without a conscience.
I have no problem grasping concept of no consciousness, as I don't recall being conscious before I was born, and I don't recall being conscious when I've been unconscious.
Because I only have one life, I try as well as I can to make it meaningful. I try to enjoy what I can, I try to give happiness to others, and I try not to hurt anyone.
I don't see life as having an inherent meaning, which is all the more reason to give as much meaning to it as possible by living a life worth living.
Because I have only one life, I try to make the most of it, and because others also only have one life, I try not to hinder them from making the most of theirs.
I don't need an afterlife. If I manage to live long enough to get old, I'm sure I'll be more or less sick of it by the time I'm done with it anyway.


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22 Feb 2010, 1:44 pm

Vince wrote:
I don't need an afterlife. If I manage to live long enough to get old, I'm sure I'll be more or less sick of it by the time I'm done with it anyway.


you have a northern european toughness of mind that i lack. i could not survive without heaven. my life would collapse in around me.
they say each of us has strengths but i guess i haven't found mine yet.



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22 Feb 2010, 2:03 pm

auntblabby wrote:
you have a northern european toughness of mind that i lack. i could not survive without heaven. my life would collapse in around me.
they say each of us has strengths but i guess i haven't found mine yet.

For me it's just a matter of perspective, really. Instead of thinking about all the stuff I might get around to after I die, I look at this life and I think about what I can accomplish before I die. I don't care about "getting" anything after death - I can live before I die instead. Then at least I can go out having done something with my life instead of having wasted it waiting for the next which I'll never get. "That's a long wait for a train don't come," as a space captain once said. I'd rather walk to my destination than starve to death at the station.


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22 Feb 2010, 5:09 pm

Sand wrote:
If you can toss and catch a ball for eternity and find it fun rather than punishment you differ radically from me. Not an insult, merely an observation.

Maybe not for all eternity, but for a long time. I still like to have some variation; it's the danger I don't really need. And I'd probably get back to the ball every other eon or so after getting bored with it the first time.

Vince wrote:
For me it's just a matter of perspective, really. Instead of thinking about all the stuff I might get around to after I die, I look at this life and I think about what I can accomplish before I die. I don't care about "getting" anything after death - I can live before I die instead. Then at least I can go out having done something with my life instead of having wasted it waiting for the next which I'll never get. "That's a long wait for a train don't come," as a space captain once said. I'd rather walk to my destination than starve to death at the station.

I too think that events and actions are important. Survival is only a medium, and valuable as a medium. Although a medium is important, it's important because there is a demand for content; it's important because of the content.
"I don't need my life - I need to punch you in the face", as a piece of trash (sic) once said. :)


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22 Feb 2010, 8:20 pm

auntblabby wrote:
Vince wrote:
I don't need an afterlife. If I manage to live long enough to get old, I'm sure I'll be more or less sick of it by the time I'm done with it anyway.


you have a northern european toughness of mind that i lack. i could not survive without heaven. my life would collapse in around me.
they say each of us has strengths but i guess i haven't found mine yet.


Although I live in Helsinki my viewpoints on the existence of heaven as a childish fairytale were well established when I grew up in Brooklyn and Manhattan, New York City. Living in northern Europe has nothing to do with it. Perhaps, as a graduate of Stuyvesant High School that was heavy on a solid scientific background, I found very reasonable alternatives to religious fantasies.



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22 Feb 2010, 10:12 pm

PLA wrote:
"I don't need my life - I need to punch you in the face", as a piece of trash (sic) once said. :)

That sounds very, very familiar. I know I've heard that line, or something close to it, somewhere, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Could be my brain has gone to sleep for the night and I'll remember tomorrow, but just in case I don't, could you refresh my memory? Google gave me nothing.


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23 Feb 2010, 2:49 am

Vince wrote:
PLA wrote:
"I don't need my life - I need to punch you in the face", as a piece of trash (sic) once said. :)

That sounds very, very familiar. I know I've heard that line, or something close to it, somewhere, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Could be my brain has gone to sleep for the night and I'll remember tomorrow, but just in case I don't, could you refresh my memory? Google gave me nothing.


s-CRY-ed. Paraphrased. :)


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"Everyone loves the dolphin. A bitter shark - emerging from it's cold depths - doesn't stand a chance." This is hyperbol.

"Run, Jump, Fall, Limp off, Try Harder."


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23 Feb 2010, 4:49 am

For several decades, my optimism was sustained by faith in a god both immanent and transcendent, and a heaven that was here in the world with us.

There came a point though, where the accumulated evidence indicated that the solution to the great equations of life came out the same whether or not one started from the assumption of god. Occam's razor swung and god was gone.

A year or two later, along came aspergers - diagnosis only half a century late. God hasn't made a comeback.



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23 Feb 2010, 7:16 pm

I was educated in a Catholic school as a child and I was so heavily indoctrinated that I felt in order to make it to heaven you would have to live such a pious and miserable life on earth it would be impossible to live up to, like many of those self flagellating saints. They invented all this nonsense of venial sin and mortal sin. If you died with a venial sin on your soul you went to purgatory and a mortal sin you suffered and eternity in hell. Since I have emotional problems associated autism. I was even told that even evil thoughts would assign you to hell or at the very least purgatory which was just as nasty but you only just stayed the for a few million years before my so called "sins" were "cleansed" and I made it to just to fairly ordinary position in heaven. St. Augustine described the fires of cleansing as more painful than anything a man can suffer in this life. But with all my evil thoughts - and I ask who does not have evil thoughts from time to time, I felt I was in an in an inescapable cycle of mortal sin. So I felt I was destined to go to God’s eternal torture chamber. These days I feel far better enlightened against all that religious scaremongering.



Last edited by paulsinnerchild on 23 Feb 2010, 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bully_on_speed
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23 Feb 2010, 7:24 pm

if they do or dont there both overrated



techstepgenr8tion
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23 Feb 2010, 11:05 pm

paulsinnerchild wrote:
I was educated in a Catholic school as a child and I was so heavily indoctrinated that I felt in order to make it to heaven you would have to live such a pious and miserable life on earth it would be impossible to live up to, like many of those self flagellating saints. They invented all this nonsense of venial sin and mortal sin. If you died with a venial sin on your soul you went to purgatory and a mortal sin you suffered and eternity in hell. Since I have emotional problems associated autism. I was even told that even evil thoughts would assign you to hell or at the very least purgatory which was just as nasty but you only just stayed the for a few million years before my so called "sins" were "cleansed" and I made it to just to fairly ordinary position in heaven. St. Augustine described the fires of cleansing as more painful than anything a man can suffer in this life. But with all my evil thoughts - and I ask who does not have evil thoughts from time to time, I felt I was in an in an inescapable cycle of mortal sin. So I felt I was destined to go to God’s eternal torture chamber. These days I feel far better enlightened against all that religious scaremongering.

I'm guessing you aren't an American Catholic? My experience initially with the doctrine was "I'm overly good - I don't seem to have the illogical/stupid gene that other people do, all this sounds common sense" (lol, yes, I was easily an abrasive goody-goody). Then, I saw the every day behavior of catholics at my church being, well, this is dead aim :lol: :
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-U0_yuXSdw&feature=related[/youtube]


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