United Against Neurelitism/sustainable development/Agenda 21

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09 Aug 2012, 7:06 pm

"Alternative futures" still isn't a parody at least as I know the definition. If you actually watch the all the videos you'll see their not all a warning of inaction but also a proactive approach to "sustainable development". Everything in the videos has been seriously advocated by environmentalists, them slapping on a disclaimer at the end doesn't change that.

nominalist
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09 Aug 2012, 7:14 pm

Well then, your mind was made up before you ever saw the video, so there is nothing else to say.

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peebo
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10 Aug 2012, 12:57 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

nominalist wrote:

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean we should make things worse.

Oh of course not but I think the focus should not be prolonging the current situation but preparing for a time when mass transport of people and goods is impossible. For example local agriculture, walk-able cities remembering folkcrafts blacksmithing soap making etc. Building community norms based on inter-reliance etc. I think we may be better off if we ran out of fuel earlier rather than later. The other species surely would.

i sense a degree of inherent anarchism in your words. although were you to expand a bit, this may no longer be evident. if you would care to do so, i'd be interested in reading and debating further.

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nominalist
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10 Aug 2012, 1:08 am

My main point in posting information on the site update was to emphasize the importance of sustainable development.

One of my observations is that many (maybe most) people in the online Autistic community are libertarians. While libertarianism may be the path of least resistance for Autists, I think it is a harmful choice.

Autists, perhaps more than anyone, need to move beyond individualism/libertarianism to what philosopher Roy Bhaskar calls the cosmic envelope - that is, to unity.

Sustainable development, focusing on the needs of others and of generations to follow, is, to me, a practical application of the cosmic envelope.

peebo
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10 Aug 2012, 7:51 am

there are some who believe agenda 21 to be a CONSPIRACY!

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10 Aug 2012, 8:36 am

peebo wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

nominalist wrote:

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean we should make things worse.

i sense a degree of inherent anarchism in your words. although were you to expand a bit, this may no longer be evident. if you would care to do so, i'd be interested in reading and debating further.

Your sensors do not need re-calibrating. But my contention of being beyond the point of no return [does not come] from that but from pessimism that technology can decrease the net use of energy. But only because it hs never done so before.

[edit fixed a dysgraphic momment]

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Last edited by JakobVirgil on 10 Aug 2012, 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

nominalist
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10 Aug 2012, 11:00 am

peebo wrote:

there are some who believe agenda 21 to be a CONSPIRACY!

Unfortunately, yes.

nominalist
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10 Aug 2012, 1:20 pm

I would add that people who believe in "conspiracies" almost always attach the word to events or belief systems that they simply do not like. I might be wrong, but I am not aware of a conspiracy theory about views which the individual would define as positive.

The conspiracy theory movement arose out of libertarianism. To many libertarians, unity and social stability are anti-libertarian. IMO, that raises serious questions about the usefulness of libertarianism as a social philosophy.

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10 Aug 2012, 2:49 pm

I don't think there is a conspiracy at all, I think they're quite clear on what they're doing and what they want to do. I think proponents either are largely ignorant of it and fall in love with positive sounding buzzwords without know what they actually entail, intellectual cowards, or intentionally deceitful. Hiding behind terms like "sustainable development" is easy, who is against sustainable development? The problems arise once you actually learn what that actually means.

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10 Aug 2012, 3:35 pm

Jacoby wrote:

IMO, you summed up the dangers of libertarianism, and you also made an ad hominem attack. I am not an intellectual coward, deceitful, or ignorant.

Libertarianism is the enemy of true liberty.

True liberty can only be achieved by focusing, not on liberty, but on serving others.

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10 Aug 2012, 4:56 pm

nominalist wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

IMO, you summed up the dangers of libertarianism, and you also made an ad hominem attack. I am not an intellectual coward.

Libertarianism is the enemy of true liberty.

True liberty can only be achieved by focusing, not on liberty, but on serving others.

I think I've heard something similar to that before, have you been reading 1984? War is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength?

I'm starting to believe your account is a parody, one that actually parodies something not the "alternative futures" kind that video apparently was. Did you really just follow a textbook ad-hominem attack with an accusation that I was attacking you? 'You're a libertarian there for you are wrong', okay...

Also, me mentioning intellectual cowardice in the 'movement' is perfectly legitimate(you selectively took that as a specific accusation for whatever reason) for a a group of people that declared that the debate is over. Very few will actually argue the merits of something like personal carbon or even calorie quotas but rather hide behind the fact that they're not actually proposing this with the subtext being that we don't really have a choice in the long run. They purposely coin vague loaded terms like 'social equity' or 'sustainable development' as way to bully people into supporting their ideological beliefs. "Oh you're for unsustainable development and social inequity?' and conveniently don't mention the means needed to achieve these utopian aims.

If I were actually attacking you personally, it would be more along lines of asking what strip mall in the Caribbean did you buy your claimed PhD from or that your website looks like something the Unabomber would make. Perhaps that's too mean but oh well... :roll:

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10 Aug 2012, 5:15 pm

nominalist wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

Pulling this crap again are you?

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10 Aug 2012, 5:53 pm

Jacoby wrote:

I think I've heard something similar to that before, have you been reading 1984? War is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength?

You are reading your own conspiracy theory into me. I never said anything like you wrote.

Jacoby wrote:

I'm starting to believe your account is a parody, one that actually parodies something not the "alternative futures" kind that video apparently was. Did you really just follow a textbook ad-hominem attack with an accusation that I was attacking you? 'You're a libertarian there for you are wrong', okay...

Whose account? And, yes, you did commit the fallacy ad hominem. In other words, you focused on the messenger, not the message.

Jacoby wrote:

They purposely coin vague loaded terms like 'social equity' or 'sustainable development' as way to bully people into supporting their ideological beliefs. "Oh you're for unsustainable development and social inequity?' and conveniently don't mention the means needed to achieve these utopian aims.

"They" are basically, um, most people. Virtually everyone, except for a vocal subculture online, recognizes the need for sustainability.

Jacoby wrote:

If I were actually attacking you personally, it would be more along lines of asking what strip mall in the Caribbean did you buy your claimed PhD from or that your website looks like something the Unabomber would make. Perhaps that's too mean but oh well... :roll:

Well, thank you for confirming what I wrote.

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10 Aug 2012, 5:54 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

Pulling this crap again are you?

Again, you are repeating the common libertarian fallacy of trying to silence anyone who does not agree with you.

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10 Aug 2012, 8:06 pm

nominalist wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

I think I've heard something similar to that before, have you been reading 1984? War is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength?

You are reading your own conspiracy theory into me. I never said anything like you wrote.

Jacoby wrote:

Whose account? And, yes, you did commit the fallacy ad hominem. In other words, you focused on the messenger, not the message.

Jacoby wrote:

"They" are basically, um, most people. Virtually everyone, except for a vocal subculture online, recognizes the need for sustainability.

Jacoby wrote:

Well, thank you for confirming what I wrote.

1. Your last post literally said "True liberty can only be achieved by focusing, not on liberty, but on serving others." Do you not see the ridiculousness of that statement? You either have tremendous lack of self awareness or purposely being disingenuous.

2. You, who else would I be talking to. I didn't attack your character, you attacked mine. Again, you have tremendous lack of self awareness or are purposely being disingenuous.

3. Who is against "sustainability"? That's a ridiculous term to use. If you read my post I comment on how bogus of phrasing this is. Harkening back to the topic intellectual cowardice, I now say you are shining example of this. You attack 'libertarians' and say everybody that disagrees with you is a weirdo yet won't acknowledge let alone debate the actual merits that involve this vision of 'sustainability'. If you actually want to discuss some of those things then be my guest, make your case and I'll respond, I'm waiting. Once again, you have tremendous lack of self awareness or are purposely being disingenuous.

4. Yes, you proved self fulfilling prophecy right. If you annoy people with pseudo-intellectual garbage long enough while pretending to be a college professor, you'll get called out for it.

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10 Aug 2012, 11:52 pm

Jacoby wrote:

More ad hominem. In a dialogue, you should assume that the other person is being honest. The fact that you see things differently from me is obvious. However, you should realize that there are many, many people who would agree with me and disagree with you.

You also seem to be surprised that I would not agree with you. I find that to be remarkable. As I have said repeatedly, I am not a libertarian. Most people in this world are not libertarians.

This is a quotation from my religious scriptures:

Quote:

Consider the pettiness of men’s minds. They ask for that which injureth them, and cast away the thing that profiteth them. They are, indeed, of those that are far astray. We find some men desiring liberty, and priding themselves therein. Such men are in the depths of ignorance.
Liberty must, in the end, lead to sedition, whose flames none can quench. Thus warneth you He Who is the Reckoner, the All-Knowing. Know ye that the embodiment of liberty and its symbol is the animal. That which beseemeth man is submission unto such restraints as will protect him from his own ignorance, and guard him against the harm of the mischief-maker. Liberty causeth man to overstep the bounds of propriety, and to infringe on the dignity of his station. It debaseth him to the level of extreme depravity and wickedness.
Regard men as a flock of sheep that need a shepherd for their protection. This, verily, is the truth, the certain truth. We approve of liberty in certain circumstances, and refuse to sanction it in others. We, verily, are the All-Knowing.
Say: True liberty consisteth in man’s submission unto My commandments, little as ye know it. Were men to observe that which We have sent down unto them from the Heaven of Revelation, they would, of a certainty, attain unto perfect liberty. Happy is the man that hath apprehended the Purpose of God in whatever He hath revealed from the Heaven of His Will, that pervadeth all created things. Say: The liberty that profiteth you is to be found nowhere except in complete servitude unto God, the Eternal Truth. Whoso hath tasted of its sweetness will refuse to barter it for all the dominion of earth and heaven.
Baháʾuʾlláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Baháʾuʾlláh. Pages 335-336.

Jacoby wrote:

2. You, who else would I be talking to. I didn't attack your character, you attacked mine. Again, you have tremendous lack of self awareness or are purposely being disingenuous.

Interesting. Please support your contention. I never once attacked your character.

Jacoby wrote:

3. Who is against "sustainability"? That's a ridiculous term to use. If you read my post I comment on how bogus of phrasing this is. Harkening back to the topic intellectual cowardice, I now say you are shining example of this. You attack 'libertarians' and say everybody that disagrees with you is a weirdo yet won't acknowledge let alone debate the actual merits that involve this vision of 'sustainability'. If you actually want to discuss some of those things then be my guest, make your case and I'll respond, I'm waiting. Once again, you have tremendous lack of self awareness or are purposely being disingenuous.

I am attacking a philosophy, not an individual. That is the normal way in which debates work. My views of libertarianism are extremely negative. IMO, it is a dangerous philosophy.

However, I never said that you are personally dangerous. I don't know you. There would be no way for me to make that determination.

Jacoby wrote:

4. Yes, you proved self fulfilling prophecy right. If you annoy people with pseudo-intellectual garbage long enough while pretending to be a college professor, you'll get called out for it.

Still more ad hominem. Are you aware you are doing it?

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