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nostromo
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15 Dec 2012, 3:35 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
TimT wrote:
Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot killed millions because they were Marxists.

None of those people were Marxists. Whilst they may have had some policies that would have pleased Marx, and were partially inspired by Marx, they are no more "Marxist" than someone who believes in "guns for all" is a utilitarian, or Hitler was a follower of Adam Smith.

Britain is "disarmed". How come I've never had to fight off a Marxist with a shotgun? How come no humanist has ever tried to castrate me?

Eugenics will not be discussed for a very long time. Any mention of eugenics today makes you a Nazi and totally unelectable.


Yes, nobody was a Marxist ever. How do you think Karl Marx himself would of governed?

If only he'd written some sort of manifesto, where he explained his opinions on how the nations should be governed...

:lol:



nostromo
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15 Dec 2012, 3:38 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
TimT wrote:
vexcaliber, I disagree. Most of these mass murderers are killing just enough people to make a name for themselves in the news media before they check out. Give them a full automatic shotgun in a Christmas mall and they would still only kill about 20.

Oh then if knives are as effective at doing anything as guns, then surely you would be fine with guns getting outlawed, as you could do everything guns do using just a kitchen knife. Right?

Indeed, we should let the military know so they can dispense with those pesky complex ARs and go back to swords, which would seem to be just as deadly.



Jacoby
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15 Dec 2012, 3:57 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
TimT wrote:
Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot killed millions because they were Marxists.

None of those people were Marxists. Whilst they may have had some policies that would have pleased Marx, and were partially inspired by Marx, they are no more "Marxist" than someone who believes in "guns for all" is a utilitarian, or Hitler was a follower of Adam Smith.

Britain is "disarmed". How come I've never had to fight off a Marxist with a shotgun? How come no humanist has ever tried to castrate me?

Eugenics will not be discussed for a very long time. Any mention of eugenics today makes you a Nazi and totally unelectable.


Yes, nobody was a Marxist ever. How do you think Karl Marx himself would of governed?

If only he'd written some sort of manifesto, where he explained his opinions on how the nations should be governed...


and Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong put it into action.



naturalplastic
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15 Dec 2012, 4:13 pm

icyfire4w5 wrote:
Hmm, do correct me if I have mis-interpreted your post. People should address the root causes of violence. Banning guns or making all knifes blunt won't address any root cause. Is this what you mean?


What he means is that he is against gun control.



The_Walrus
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15 Dec 2012, 6:40 pm

Jacoby wrote:
and Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong put it into action.

No, they went beyond simple Marxism. For example, Stalin persecuted the religious and censored the press, Mao and Pol Pot also led genocides. Marxism does not advocate genocide, persecution of the religious or censoring of the media.

Additionally, Marx advocated a stateless society. The Soviet Union under Stalin (and indeed Lenin and co.) was very far away from that. It had a political class suppressing the working class. The ruling class made all the decisions, like in 1984 (where the Inner Party make decisions about production that affect the other party members and the proletariat). State capitalism is not Marxism.

I am by no means an expert on Marxism. In fact, I only have a very basic understanding of Marxism. However, it seems clear to me that you and Tim are conflating Marxism and Stalinism (is that a word) and Maoism. "Marxist dictator" is almost an oxymoron. Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were all communists, and they all killed millions, but they didn't kill millions because they were Marxists, or even directly because they were communists.

Again, where are the Marxists just waiting to pounce when American citizens are disarmed? Why haven't they pounced on America's allies? Communist parties received less than 0.2% of the vote in America- if they do exist, they are so fringe that simple numbers would wipe them out. If it is an external threat you are worried about, an invasion from China or Russia that managed to get past the US Army would have no trouble dealing with an armed army of citizens.



Jacoby
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15 Dec 2012, 7:23 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
and Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong put it into action.

No, they went beyond simple Marxism. For example, Stalin persecuted the religious and censored the press, Mao and Pol Pot also led genocides. Marxism does not advocate genocide, persecution of the religious or censoring of the media.

Additionally, Marx advocated a stateless society. The Soviet Union under Stalin (and indeed Lenin and co.) was very far away from that. It had a political class suppressing the working class. The ruling class made all the decisions, like in 1984 (where the Inner Party make decisions about production that affect the other party members and the proletariat). State capitalism is not Marxism.

I am by no means an expert on Marxism. In fact, I only have a very basic understanding of Marxism. However, it seems clear to me that you and Tim are conflating Marxism and Stalinism (is that a word) and Maoism. "Marxist dictator" is almost an oxymoron. Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were all communists, and they all killed millions, but they didn't kill millions because they were Marxists, or even directly because they were communists.

Again, where are the Marxists just waiting to pounce when American citizens are disarmed? Why haven't they pounced on America's allies? Communist parties received less than 0.2% of the vote in America- if they do exist, they are so fringe that simple numbers would wipe them out. If it is an external threat you are worried about, an invasion from China or Russia that managed to get past the US Army would have no trouble dealing with an armed army of citizens.


The Hindenburg wasn't built to fail, it doesn't change that it did. You cannot disown the results of Marxism, wherever it has been applied it has impoverished and killed. Communists are essentially flat earthers.



The_Walrus
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16 Dec 2012, 8:40 am

The original point wasn't that Marxism or communism doesn't work, it was that Marxist are murderers. Firstly, Stalin in particular was not a Marxist.

I dispute that all nations where Marxism has been applied have become impoverished. The Venezuelan economy has improved dramatically since Hugo Chavez was elected, and poverty has fallen. There are, of course, human rights abuses in that country, but state killings are rare, the bigger issue is political imprisonment and the suppression of free speech. Clement Atlee's government didn't pretend to be communist, just socialist, and didn't inflict human rights abuses beyond those that were going on in Britain anyway (like the persecution of homosexuals and denying prisoners the vote), but Marx's influence was there.

The point is that there are not Marxists lurking in the corners of America who will come and put every God fearing, free market loving American in a concentration camp as soon as their martyrs have committed as many false flag shootings as it takes for political will to implement increased gun control.



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18 Dec 2012, 9:27 am

I read "Das Kapital" by Karl Marx as a teenager. Through that, I became a Marxist. After eight hours, my faith failed me. It couldn't work for psychological and sociological reasons. The interim step of socialist dictatorship of the proletariat gives no motivation to the workers, so it ends up a slave state. The ultimate step of Communist Anarchy can't happen because the socialist despots have made too many enemies; their political power is the only thing keeping them alive. Neurotypicals are useful idiots, only thinking as shallow as "Imagine" by John Lennon.
But that didn't stop them from pretending to be philanthropic socialists - until they had the leadership. Vladmir Lenin taught them to infiltrate and subvert all the institutions of the target country. America's schools, news media and entertainment media are tightly in control. The Democratic party used to be liberal, but the leftists infiltrated & subverted it to Marxism. The original liberals are disenfranchised.
Stalin wrote that you force the population to submit to Marxism until you have less than 20% who are against you. You "eliminate" these people. No one will mess them outside of a small circle of friends.
In England, the Marxists are using the Muslims to destabilize the country so they can do their mass murders. When the Muslims get populous enough to try to take over, the Marxists will first kill the conservatives and then the Muslims. Who will notice?



The_Walrus
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18 Dec 2012, 5:35 pm

Another autism supremacist \o/

Here are a few pointers for you:
1) Most of the world's great thinkers were neurotypical (or at least, they weren't autistic). Hume, Russell, Voltaire, Plato, Aristotle, Aquinas, Bentham, Mill, Singer, Gandhi, King, Marx, Smith. If their characterisations in their holy books are accurate, then I'd include Jesus and the Buddha. I think you could make arguments for Socrates and Kant being autistic (both would rather die than settle for a falsehood, Kant obeyed rigid routines, both were considered eccentrics). Doubtless there are some obviously ones (at least as big as Adam Smith) who I have missed.

2) The Democratic party is right of centre now. Obama is closer to Smith and Rand than Marx and Freeman.

3) Muslims aren't "being used" by Marxists. Some have "been used" by Bin Laden and his followers. Bin Laden, incidentally, was a capitalist, though he wanted Arabs to look after themselves before trading with the West (particularly the USA) so he's not exactly Smith's #1 fan. And of course his capitalism was to all intents and purposes irrelevant.



nostromo
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18 Dec 2012, 7:55 pm

Outside the margin of error no-one believes in Maxism anymore. An epic failure that simply fails to take into account the basics of human nature.



TimT
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19 Dec 2012, 7:11 am

When the Marxist Soviet Union and all its satellite states collapsed, the New York Marxists were dancing in the streets. The Americans couldn't point to the Marxists threatening us. Therefore, they could get about the business of infiltrate & subvert. They dismissed the Soviet Union, saying "they just didn't do it right. WE will do it right!" That is an actual quote from that era.

Getting back to guns, Indonesia's president Sukarno was a closet Marxist, like Obama. He ignored the guns the citizens had. When he pulled his coup to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat, he killed all the generals but one, arrested the police, confined the army to barracks and arrested all the congressmen. But the Proletariat spontaneously arose and shot the Marxists and freed the army. The last of the Marxists were getting in boats to go to other countries. BTW, the Marxists are changing history books so this Marxist failure didn't happen. They need bold Marxists who don't know failure.



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19 Dec 2012, 7:17 am

nostromo wrote:
Outside the margin of error no-one believes in Maxism anymore. An epic failure that simply fails to take into account the basics of human nature.


no one actually knows human nature,

the nature of existence is still the biggest philosophical subject there is.


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