SERIOUS Wonderment Concerning Evolution...

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Evolution is not directional. It cannot aim for a goal. Even whole wheels would not work, for the reasons already explained to you in this thread. Half wheels would be all but useless.

Please Ana, it's great that you're interested in evolution but it would be better if you applied yourself to understanding it. You frequently ignore the most basic concepts in evolutionary biology (such as evolution not being able to aim for a goal), and then arrogantly act as if you know more than everyone else.

I don't act as I know more than everyone else. In fact, I frequently ask for people to contribute. Instead, they want to challenge everything I type as if I couldn't possibly understand even the most basic of concepts. Open your minds, I say. Can you say you know for a FACT and can provide absolute proof there is not a planet or moon somewhere that has creatures that evolved wheels much like birds evolved wings with feathers? Instead of spending so much energy negating my thoughts, why not consider the possibilities and admit you do not know for sure because you, like me and everyone else, have not seen all there is to see. We all have exceptionally limited perception of the universe.

Ana you constantly and consistently present your thought bubbles as being as valid as hypothesis and theories which have many thousands of hours of research and experiment backing them up. Many times now I have implored you to read up on the subject you are discussing, but I get the impression you never get past the headlines. So maybe you do not think you know more than everyone else but you most certainly seem to think your completely unsubstantiated thoughts have equal voracity. To answer your question no of course we cannot absolutely prove their is not a planet with wheeled life forms. However the basic fundamentals of physics and the nature of evolution strongly suggest that given the laws of the visible universe existence of such a planet is next to impossible. Suggesting wheels should have evolved on this planet exposes your almost complete lack of knowledge regarding evolutionary biology.

Just the idea that it is possible (somewhere) is enough to make it interesting and I honestly do not understand the reactions I am getting. Everything I have typed makes perfect sense to me. It seems completely logical. I don't see why anyone would get offended at such an idea. When you consider feathers for instance...it's not that much of a stretch.

Just the idea that mankind was able to come up with such inventions is awe inspiring and seems like a part of evolution. There is much more to this than meets the eye. It's not just a matter of it being impossible, physically and genetically, as many believe. It's a matter of a evolutionary branch of the planet being able to realize what we haven't seen from biological evolution.

And we still don't know if it's completely and utterly impossible in the universe.

I feel it is entirely unnecessary to say it is impossible.

I can see some little creature somewhere having these little feather-looking fingers (resembling a gecko's maybe?) moving quickly, in a circular motion, and that is how it gets around. Imagine four feet with these fingers that can move in a circular motion and you have something like a wheel. Imagine something like a centipede that has feet with really tiny appendages that move in a circular motion. They could be so small you couldn't see them however they propel it along. It's kind of like a propeller only it would involve highly sophisticated coordination on the part of the creature who has them. Such creatures could exist on other planets or moons.

Don't worry, ooOoOsy, these bods are trying to make their ridiculous fancies seem more credible by rubbishing yours.

Its no so much offense, rather a facepalm. The trouble is Ana you prefer your thought bubble versions of events over knowledge that has been garnered through very diligent experiment and observation. All we are trying to say is that most of your questions would be answered if you took the time to get a basic grasp of the subject. As for Evolution in the biological sense has nothing to do with tools, except the evolution of an organism that can make tools. Unless you are going to suggest that a life form could invent a tool that runs on wheels and, overtime, the inventor works it in such a way that it becomes self replicating, perhaps even sentient and maybe with the ability to adapt to changing environs. If this is what you are getting at then you are talking creation myth, and there is nothing to this other than pure speculation. Could this be possible? maybe, is it plausible? who knows, did you start this thread speculating about far away planets and the possible life forms on them? No you did not.

Let me remind you what you said;



The above comment has nothing to do with unknown evolutionary events on far away planets, you are specifically referring to known earth based evolution, so please stop trying to shift the goal posts, and for once do some research on the subject and then you will have the answer to your question.

Arty, you are the guy ducking and weaving all over the field with the goal posts in your pocket.

"Unknown evolutionary events" exist only in your fancy and have no connection with the reality that constrains sane people.

You already proposed that at the start of the thread.

Several folks already addressed that issue.

You cant have a free spinning wheel on a living organism larger that unicellular paramecium. And even if you could there would be no advantage to it. Feral dogs with wheels for limbs could ride the subway rails between stations but they wouldnt be able to climb off the rails and jump on the platforms to hunt for food. And even wheels with off road treads on an animal are not be very useful for running down prey unless the prey sticks to roads, and doesnt run through tall grass, or over mud, up trees.

But something like what you were talking about in the other post might be possible.

Maybe you could have a large multicellular creature with tiny cilia on its skin cells. These microscopic appendages could pulse in cordinated waves pushing against the surface that you're standing on in a way that mimics the bottom of a spinning wheel ( it would be like the rubber meeting the road). Lets say you, a human, had this system of pulsing cilia on the bottom of your feet. You could just stand there without taking a step and the skin on your feet would just propel you along! But even so you couldnt possible move very fast with that system. So its hard to imagine how that would be very useful.

I have recently discovered that it is pointless trying to reason with ANA regarding what we have discovered about the Natural world. She is a Christian Gnostic and therefore believes in the Gnostic understanding of the Demiurge, meaning that the only way to understanding is through spiritual means via asceticism and the refutation of the materiel world. The upshot of this is that anything discovered via "material" means is immediately open to suspicion and scepticism as it was created by The Demiurge who is known as the creator of falsehoods and evil. The effect of the Demiurge upon the materiel world (within Gnosticism) is hard to pin down. Some see the Demiurge as a lower god doing the best it could using the fallible and inferior product of that is Materiel, others go so far as to describe it as Satan. Whatever the case ANA will never accept something Material that differs from her self found spiritual belief as this has come from a higher realm

Woo! That's rich coming from you who subscribe to a faith that is completely divorced from the real world and its natural laws.

I'll take the FACT that ANA expresses
empathy toward other folks here

and does not ride them down;
any day over science.

Science is just a tool.

Humans are real.

Get real.

Just a suggestion...

Her own values of human compassion, dignity,
and selflessness will take her further in life
than any science

ever will...

no matter where 'they' come from.

But I'm not talking about a job.

I'm talking about enjoying life;
and connecting to other REAL
flesh and blood folks...

And a Philosophy or Science that
does not include that is nothing much of
all of real human value when flesh and blood
becomes

'life';

If it ever does.

The greatest wonderment of evolution
of any animal is the capability of
healthy human beings to love
and socially cooperate.

Anything else is below
this greaTEST OF
ALL human
potential;
of
all
evolution
now;
on Earth,
at least..

Seriously, sometimes
'this place' needs an enema..



And 'this place' refers to all of online 'adventures' where 'avatars' make
folks not culpable for the lack of basic humanity in human
cognitive and affective empathy for other human beings.

In real life, people open doors for folks, where I live.

And for folks that openly ride other folks down; there
are real flesh and blood consequences for that as well.

Those are the rooms of life, I enjoy the most.

Most of online is sick; very

sick in this
way and

'seriously'

sad.



Check your heart Dent; again, just a suggestion.

ANA is human; I KNOW THAT FOR A FACT.

God! she is a saint
here.

Firstly David your opinion regarding science is worthless as it is demonstrably facile, in fact, to use your own words, your understanding of science is divorced from reality. Aghogday all I am doing is stating a fact, if you perceive that as being an attack that is your interpretation.

As for "Her own values of human compassion, dignity,
and selflessness will take her further in life
than any science"

This may very well be true, but I for one am very grateful the we have science and the scientific method and people like David, and others who think spiritual revelations are the primary source of knowledge, have lost control of accepted knowledge and how to attain credible understanding of things. ANA is perfectly entitled to believe whatever she wants, but it is important for those trying to reason with her to understand where her thought processes are based.

And I am sorry but it IS pointless trying to explain physics to someone who refuses to accept that we can get a basic understanding of the natural world,because they see the material world as flawed by either design or its fundamental nature, and therefore spiritual revelation triumphs over any evidence from the material world. call that a personal attack if you want, I really don't give a damn what you think.

I've not been talking about any so-called "spiritual revelations". That is your red herring.

I've just been pointing out with examples and reasons that your religion (faith) is entirely superstitious and contradictory to well known, observable and observed natural laws, processes and operations.

That you ignore the evidence presented is not my fault. You may go ahead and believe any impossible thing you like, but I take exception to you spreading the stuff around deceiving the unwary with nonscience and destroying what is left of real science and proper scientific method.

David all you have presented is a very facile understanding of complex physics accompanied by hyperbole and nonsensical rhetoric. I do not have a religion, yes I have a position on knowledge which is that plausible natural explanations must be thoroughly exhausted before any consideration is given to supernatural ones. You on the other hand will never contemplate any evidence that challenges your "self evident" understanding of god and creation. So whilst you do not talk about spiritual revelation, you are intransigent in your belief of an intelligent creator, and life on this planet and this belief triumphs over any evidence. So in effect you and ANA are different sides of the same coin.

I am hoping for a laugh as the wink might elicit that is tongue in CHEEK; but never the less, strong disagreement, like I do not give a dam what you think, and BOLDING is an improvement.

There is HOPE for you Mr. Dent.

Smiles.

I am no 'tattle tale'; but I am a 'Behavior Modification' expert.

Just another area of my expertise...

I believe in full disclothsure and disco..

Of course you are

You know, in my life I have noticed that the more people self aggrandize, the more they say they are blissfully happy, the greater is the opposite reality.