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Dussel
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19 Feb 2009, 11:52 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
No, it is a definition. Qualia is the term that is used for non-material sensation.


There are no such thinks like "non-material" sensations. A sensation we have as humans is signal which is transported via the nerves and processed in the brain - all with complex molecules interactions.

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
I mean, basically, you say that qualia result from material, therefore they are material, but that doesn't prove a darn thing.


This is not what I said: I said this constitutes in our mind the particular category of e.g. a material. I used to the ideas of I. Kant how introduced the three categories "Ding ansich" ("the thing on itself") which causes the sensations ("phenomena") in the first place, the sensations (colours, dimensions, touch and other measures e.g. via instruments) and the process of the mind to construct out of this sensations our model of the world and recomposes our model of the world. In this particular idea Kant's philosophy is still a valid model to understand what really happens when we realize that this is chair or we measure that this particular material contains 0.0034% Carbon 14.


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Via the evolutionary process - even a relative primitive animal must have some born-with logic: When I eat than I am no longer hungry, when I move than my position in space and time changes. A hard-wired understanding of this ideas is needed just to survive. When A than B. It would be more than surprising if such hard-wired logic would just gone lost with humans. The difference is that our concious mind is aware about this logic.

Well, ok. But, you did not really prove that logic is the most valid, or trustworthy by your measures. You have proven that logic can justify itself,


No - not by itself. It justified by the practical results it can produce. Firstly our plain survival, but on a higher level the functioning of civilisation. If our logic would that weak, not electrical device would work, not to speak of computer and software, which are the strongest current manifestations of our logic. If our logic would that false or weak - the whole system would break down within seconds.

Therefore our logic must be seen as quite reliable.

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
which is nice, but having a mechanism justify itself is circular. Not only that, but you still haven't proven that logic is more justifiable than mystical perceptions, for even using a pragmatic rule, one can justify mystical perceptions.


Mystical perception never produced reliable predictions, never explained the world in manner which produced any real progress. Mystical thinker never produced anything useful like the computer, penicillin or even the pendulum clock. From a pragmatic viewpoint mystical experiences are simply useless. From a personal viewpoint they may be interesting, but when it comes to real problems, they are still useless.



Dussel
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19 Feb 2009, 11:57 am

slowmutant wrote:
Science has this attutude of, "If I don't understand it, it can't possibly exist" which really gets me red in the face because it parallels the religious dogmatism which ostensibly it combats. There's all kinds of dogma.


Science has an other attitude than you describe: "He is a new phenomenon, it does not fit in our existing theory, let's investigate and think about this, till we have a better theory, and than try to test our new theory to verify the new theory and if this does not work, start the whole process again."

It is no dogma behind this, it is a method to get ever closer to an understanding of the universe we live in.



Dussel
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19 Feb 2009, 12:08 pm

Magnus wrote:
There is no proof that emotions exist other than the reactions that people have from them and maybe the brain scans where we see certain parts of the brain become active during certain emotional responses. Emotions are not tangible. They are not atoms. Maybe they are a sort of energy though.

The same can be true for people undergoing a spiritual experience. I think it was Dussel who pointed out that a certain region of the brain becomes more active during a mystical sort of experience. The spirit that we feel and call God is probably not tangible and may not be up of atoms.


There no indication of such "spirit of god", the idea that there such a thing is just a pointless speculation which is not needed to explain something like emotions.

Why we should use such a speculation? This speculation has no more worth than any other pointless idea.



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19 Feb 2009, 12:10 pm

Dussel wrote:
Magnus wrote:
There is no proof that emotions exist other than the reactions that people have from them and maybe the brain scans where we see certain parts of the brain become active during certain emotional responses. Emotions are not tangible. They are not atoms. Maybe they are a sort of energy though.

The same can be true for people undergoing a spiritual experience. I think it was Dussel who pointed out that a certain region of the brain becomes more active during a mystical sort of experience. The spirit that we feel and call God is probably not tangible and may not be up of atoms.


There no indication of such "spirit of god", the idea that there such a thing is just a pointless speculation which is not needed to explain something like emotions.

Why we should use such a speculation? This speculation has no more worth than any other pointless idea.


Could you be any more Aspie? :roll:



Dussel
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19 Feb 2009, 12:11 pm

bunny-in-the-moon wrote:
Was it the existence of Babylon that was cast in the same light? :? I'm not sure but I think it was existence of Babylon that so-called intellectuals disputed because there was nothing but the testimony of the bible as evidence of it, up until the remains were found?


This is absolute nonsense - The existence of Babylon is also mentioned in Roman, Egyptian and Greek sources. There more literature from antiquity than just the Bible - much more!



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19 Feb 2009, 12:23 pm

bunny-in-the-moon wrote:
Right, this is it though isn't it.. I - believer - assert/state/propose that the cause of the universe coming in to existence is a God and that said God continues to be the metaphysical force behind the continued existence and sustenance of the universe He/She/It created.. the proof being the effects of that cause, namely, the existence of the universe, and the continued sustenance of it..


It was Spinoza how showed that the idea of a creator is not needed to explain the existence of the universe. It is always amazing for me to see that religious people try to fight intellectual battles, which are over since centuries (in same cases even millennia).

bunny-in-the-moon wrote:
Going back to what was said earlier, the proposition that there is a God, in itself does not have any "empirical content", but, it still stands that you cannot offer an alternative reason for the origins of existence and continued sustenance of it.


There is no need for such a reason. There is only matter which changes it appearance, but still is matter: Or Energy, an other name for the same infinitive substance of which everything is composed. This matter does need a beginning, neither an end. It just exists. The Big Bang was nothing more that matter changing it appearance.



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19 Feb 2009, 12:26 pm

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The Big Bang was nothing more that matter changing it appearance.


Evidence please?



Dussel
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19 Feb 2009, 12:35 pm

slowmutant wrote:
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The Big Bang was nothing more that matter changing it appearance.


Evidence please?


Clear evidence not yet, we had to wait some years (at least till LHC at the CERN is working again), but there are some models around, which describe the Big Bang in the term of quantum mechanics and describe as an natural incident. Which theory will show up as true, none needs a god or anything supernatural at all.

It seems to be that Spinoza's analysis is right.



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19 Feb 2009, 12:36 pm

Dussel wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
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The Big Bang was nothing more that matter changing it appearance.


Evidence please?


Clear evidence not yet, we had to wait some years (at least till LHC at the CERN is working again), but there are some models around, which describe the Big Bang in the term of quantum mechanics and describe as an natural incident. Which theory will show up as true, none needs a god or anything supernatural at all.

It seems to be that Spinoza's analysis is right.


You have unshakable faith in Spinoza, I see.



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19 Feb 2009, 12:53 pm

slowmutant wrote:
You have unshakable faith in Spinoza, I see.


Oh No, but he had this idea, according to my knowledge first, it seems to be that he was right, because the current discussion in science regarding the Big Bang points very much into his idea of an eternal matter. He was obviously in the question of time, which he saw also as eternal.

It like with other philosophisers: I still can use some of Kant's abstract idea about the process of construction a picture of reality in our mind, but some aspects of his ideas were proven wrong. Ideas of philosophers are in this area a set of tool for understanding the world, bringing the ideas and the empirical experiences into a order and context. Some of this tools are outdated, some not. But, for example, having Kant's argumentation in mind the ideas of quantum mechanics and relativity do appear not that absurd, because Kant showed which knowledge a-priory could be not proven by Newton's physic empirically. So modern science showed just that these knowledge a-priory are assumptions which are in the meanwhile proven wrong. For someone how is aware of Kant's argumentation no big surprise, because why nature should be modelled according to our mental prejudices? When we even add the aspect of evolution than we can explain how and why this prejudices exist in this way in the first place and why they are so deeply hard-wired in our brains.



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19 Feb 2009, 1:10 pm

Kant and Spinoza ... were they gods?

Did they have omniscient knowledge? Infallible knowledge?



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19 Feb 2009, 1:15 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Kant and Spinoza ... were they gods?

Did they have omniscient knowledge? Infallible knowledge?


No - This precisely not what I wrote: They had some very good ideas, thought about issues very carefully and got some conclusions which we still can use. In other issues they are just outdated. It is our task to figure out what is still useful and what of mere historical value.

The good thing with great philosophers is that even their outdated and wrong proven ideas helps us to understand issues, because by understanding why such great mind were wrong we see better why our horizon is wider than those 300/200 or even 2500 years ago.

As I said: They provide tools, nothing more. It is our task to see they are still useful or not.



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19 Feb 2009, 1:27 pm

Every cubic centimeter of empty space in the universe contains more energy than the total energy of all the matter in the known universe.


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19 Feb 2009, 1:29 pm

Magnus wrote:
Every cubic centimeter of empty space in the universe contains more energy than the total energy of all the matter in the known universe.


What kind of energy resides in empty space? Does empty space = vacuum?



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19 Feb 2009, 1:34 pm

Magnus wrote:

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There is no proof that emotions exist other than the reactions that people have from them and maybe the brain scans where we see certain parts of the brain become active during certain emotional responses. Emotions are not tangible. They are not atoms. Maybe they are a sort of energy though.

The same can be true for people undergoing a spiritual experience. I think it was Dussel who pointed out that a certain region of the brain becomes more active during a mystical sort of experience. The spirit that we feel and call God is probably not tangible and may not be up of atoms.

Dussel wrote:
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There no indication of such "spirit of god", the idea that there such a thing is just a pointless speculation which is not needed to explain something like emotions.

Why we should use such a speculation? This speculation has no more worth than any other pointless idea.


The spirit of the divine is something I had felt during spiritual epiphanies, so I've had personal experience with it. It's not speculation. It's proof to me but I don't expect you to understand unless you also have shared a similar experience.


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19 Feb 2009, 2:33 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Magnus wrote:
Every cubic centimeter of empty space in the universe contains more energy than the total energy of all the matter in the known universe.


What kind of energy resides in empty space? Does empty space = vacuum?


Google quantum vacuum energy. Google Casimir effect.

There is more in heaven and earth than is dreamed of in your philosophy.

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