Why don't the faithful hold God morally accountable?

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Joker
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12 Apr 2012, 10:35 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Well, the reason put as simply as possible is that He's God. He is above morality. No created being is above morality, but the uncreated Creator is.


First, I appreciate you actually elaborating. Thanks ^_^

Secondly, how does this, in any way, make sense? Do we not condemn those that fail to practice what they preach, even if what they preach is a great idea? By commanding a paradigm of morality, God, as its source, makes Himself part of that paradigm - unless you're saying it's okay to decree, "Screw the rules, I make 'em!" (link)


It only makes sense to those who follow Gods law and believes in him.



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12 Apr 2012, 10:35 pm

That really coulda been put into a new post for ease of reading. Forum etiquette, my friend. Forum etiquette.

I'll actually address the point later, maybe tonight, more likely tomorrow - for now, I go very shortly to watch Aliens with my wife, and addressing the idea of the nature of moral thought (as far as I think of it) would be a long-ass post indeed.

EDIT: The above was addressed to Ragtime, as Joker ninja'd me like a boss.


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12 Apr 2012, 10:37 pm

That is complete bull :lol:

One could make the same argument and say the politicians who banned paedophilia could freely engage in it, because they created the law and as such they are above it.


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MarketAndChurch
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12 Apr 2012, 10:37 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Well, the reason put as simply as possible is that He's God. He is above morality. No created being is above morality, but the uncreated Creator is. Created beings are, as created beings, "under" certain requirements by their creator. But who puts the eternal, unmade God under anything? Seriously! It makes perfect sense to me that He is accountable to no one. Note the silliness of the following statement: "C'mon, God, if we have to follow the rules, so do you." A person that would utter that sentence needs his or her head examined if they think the sentence makes real sense.


The rules are not here for God. They are here for us. You can't hurt God, you can't rape God, you can't murder God, you can't gossip behind God's back, you can't have an affair with God's wife(or husband), but you can all of those things to people. The rules are here for us because you cannot hurt the unknowable unseeable who reigns somewhere up there, but you can certainly do thsoe things to people.

He is above nature, and unlike us, God has a great alibi for all that God does.


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MarketAndChurch
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12 Apr 2012, 10:38 pm

abacacus wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Why should one hold God accountable when the majority of our suffering are not natural, but rather, manmade...

If one is fair, then simply ask yourself that, does most of your suffering come from natural causes, like your autism, or the death of a relative due to cancer, or a tornado, or does it come from other human beings, who talk behind your back, talk ill in front of you or to you, do not treat people you well, etc.

If God held humanity accountable since Cain, and despite a flood, we still act the way we do, then if we destroy this world or each other, we are responsible for that, and does not reflect on God.

If you put God on Trial, at least be fair in the way you do it.


Okay then, here's a fair trial:

Why did your god command so many atrocities? You know, human sacrifice, the murder of infants, the murder of entire towns or even nations, horrific punishments such as being burned alive, etc.


Examples please...


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abacacus
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12 Apr 2012, 10:47 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
abacacus wrote:

Okay then, here's a fair trial:

Why did your god command so many atrocities? You know, human sacrifice, the murder of infants, the murder of entire towns or even nations, horrific punishments such as being burned alive, etc.


Examples please...


"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." Leviticus 21:9

"Whatever/whoever emerges and comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the people of Ammon, shall surely be God’s, and I shall sacrifice him/her/it as a burnt offering." (Judges 11:31) It happened to be his daughter, actually.

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

"Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants." (Isaiah 14:21)

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7)

Would you like any more?


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MarketAndChurch
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12 Apr 2012, 10:49 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:
No, really. It sounds like a simple question, doesn't it? One that might admit an easy answer? But it doesn't. The best one I've gotten was from our very own Shrox, who (to paraphrase) said, "He came down to Earth to let us kill Him - sounds like moral accountability to me," (a note to Shrox and others: I'm paraphrasing because I'm too lazy to hunt for the exact quote in the archives. My apologies, and I'll hunt it down if you would like me to).

The essential question is this: why is God considered just, moral, and/or merciful when many of his supposed teachings, commandments and actions are unjust (eternal punishments for finite transgressions, slaughter in response to relatively small provocation, commanding his followers to murder gentiles in order to steal and/or rape their women), unmerciful (creation of suffering in response to original sin, death/hell in general) or just straight up immoral (go ahead, check out the OT's policies on rape. No, go on. I will wait while you read)? Starting from a standpoint that God exists and actually Does Stuff with His great omnipotence, why is it that those who choose to believe in Him fail to hold Him morally accountable for His own actions? Aside from Shrox's (rather refreshing) answer, the only one I've ever gotten boils down to, "Well, He works in mysterious ways," which sounds to me like a cop-out method of avoiding thought on one's own theology. Can anyone give me an answer on this? Anyone at all?



I don't know if God is omnipotent... certainly with regard to the human future. He may be omnipotent, and know the future of the natural world, but I don't think he knows the human one, as we don't always follow the rules of the natural world, and make them up as we go along, often to the detriment of the natural world God built for us.

I would like examples. Judaism doesn't believe in original sin, that is a Christian concept, so I think you are talking about Christianity here. Just so I know where you are coming from, can you give examples of:

1.) eternal punishments for finite transgressions,
2.) slaughter in response to relatively small provocation,
3.) commanding his followers to murder gentiles in order to steal and/or rape their women),
4.) unmerciful (creation of suffering in response to original sin, death/hell in general) or just straight up immoral


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Joker
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12 Apr 2012, 10:49 pm

abacacus wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
abacacus wrote:

Okay then, here's a fair trial:

Why did your god command so many atrocities? You know, human sacrifice, the murder of infants, the murder of entire towns or even nations, horrific punishments such as being burned alive, etc.


Examples please...


"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." Leviticus 21:9

"Whatever/whoever emerges and comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the people of Ammon, shall surely be God’s, and I shall sacrifice him/her/it as a burnt offering." (Judges 11:31) It happened to be his daughter, actually.

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

"Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants." (Isaiah 14:21)

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7)

Would you like any more?


That is all from the old testement how about from the new testement.



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12 Apr 2012, 10:53 pm

Joker wrote:
That is all from the old testement how about from the new testement.


Why? According to the bible you have to follow the old testament as well. Even if you weren't, the bible also says that god doesn't change. You are worshipping the god that commanded those atrocities. Now justify his ordering of them, don't dance around the issue.


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12 Apr 2012, 10:55 pm

abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:
That is all from the old testement how about from the new testement.


Why? According to the bible you have to follow the old testament as well. Even if you weren't, the bible also says that god doesn't change. You are worshipping the god that commanded those atrocities. Now justify his ordering of them, don't dance around the issue.


Your right but I foucus on the New Testement to most christians, we view the Old Testement as part of the history of our faith but we do not follow such laws because we go by what Jesus of nazareth taught that is what being a christian is.



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12 Apr 2012, 11:00 pm

Joker wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:
That is all from the old testement how about from the new testement.


Why? According to the bible you have to follow the old testament as well. Even if you weren't, the bible also says that god doesn't change. You are worshipping the god that commanded those atrocities. Now justify his ordering of them, don't dance around the issue.


Your right but I foucus on the New Testement to most christians, we view the Old Testement as part of the history of our faith but we do not follow such laws because we go by what Jesus of nazareth taught that is what being a christian is.
...and part of what Jesus said was not to set the old laws aside...


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12 Apr 2012, 11:03 pm

abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:
That is all from the old testement how about from the new testement.


Why? According to the bible you have to follow the old testament as well. Even if you weren't, the bible also says that god doesn't change. You are worshipping the god that commanded those atrocities. Now justify his ordering of them, don't dance around the issue.


Your right but I foucus on the New Testement to most christians, we view the Old Testement as part of the history of our faith but we do not follow such laws because we go by what Jesus of nazareth taught that is what being a christian is.
...and part of what Jesus said was not to set the old laws aside...


True he came to fufill it but as Christanity grew threw out history it became more about the new testement some christians follow those laws some like me do not because the only way to the father is threw Jesus of nazareth in a way you can views those laws as a necessary evil.

How ever your not going to find many modern christians that follow those laws unless they are a fundie which I do not like at all for many reasons for the fact that they justify their crimes by using the old testement and avioding the laws of the new testement,



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12 Apr 2012, 11:10 pm

SO what you're essentially saying is "god is the father and he knows best but I know better than him"? :lol:


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12 Apr 2012, 11:14 pm

abacacus wrote:
SO what you're essentially saying is "god is the father and he knows best but I know better than him"? :lol:


No I am saying that you will not find christians that follow the old convenent laws unless they are a funny a lot of christian have the right to disagree but still be obident to God by following the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth their are a lot of branches of Christianity.

I follow Gothic Christianity because historically the Goths where Christian.



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12 Apr 2012, 11:17 pm

abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:
That is all from the old testement how about from the new testement.


Why? According to the bible you have to follow the old testament as well. Even if you weren't, the bible also says that god doesn't change. You are worshipping the god that commanded those atrocities. Now justify his ordering of them, don't dance around the issue.


Your right but I foucus on the New Testement to most christians, we view the Old Testement as part of the history of our faith but we do not follow such laws because we go by what Jesus of nazareth taught that is what being a christian is.
...and part of what Jesus said was not to set the old laws aside...


but rather to put them into context, mostly with the new testament taking the lead, and square the two books. Original Sin is not a jewish concept, largely a new-testament inspired play on an old testament story. It is a balancing act that 2000 years of study has learned to balance, and some doctrines Christians accept, and some they don't.


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12 Apr 2012, 11:20 pm

Joker wrote:
abacacus wrote:
SO what you're essentially saying is "god is the father and he knows best but I know better than him"? :lol:


No I am saying that you will not find christians that follow the old convenent laws unless they are a funny a lot of christian have the right to disagree but still be obident to God by following the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth their are a lot of branches of Christianity.

I follow Gothic Christianity because historically the Goths where Christian.


Which amounts to what I said...


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