Men's rights.

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Hang on, no you are wrong. If that was included in the overall percentage of "rape" then why is there a separate category for it under "other sexual violence" and not "rape"? The "rape" figure only includes men who were penetrated orally or anally, it does not include men who were forced to penetrate someone else. If you are going to cite statistics please read the definitions. I included the that subcategory only because I did not include all the categories of "other sexual assault" as rape, just that one. One could argue that "sexual coercion" should also be included in that category, then yes there would be more women raped because that category has twice as women "sexually coerced" than men over the 12 month period but it wouldn't be as high as "10 times more likely" over that period.

Finally, yes, I should clarify that I was comparing the number victims over a 12 month period, not the estimation of victimization over a lifetime. If you are talking about the chance of victimization over a lifetime, then yes, you would still be right.

Last edited by Jono on 26 Sep 2012, 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

ok, let's break it down using their language

TOTAL women raped in a lifetime: 21,840,000
TOTAL men: 1,581,000

that is more than ten times higher.

TOTAL women experiencing sexual violence*** in a lifetime: 53,174,000
TOTAL men experiencing sexual violence*** in a lifetime: 25,130,000

the rates of these 2 over the last 12 months are similar, but that is not the same thing as what the MRA are stating. they are stating:

***it should be noted that 'sexual violence' includes being flashed by a partner, having someone ask repeatedly for sex when they are not in the mood, being kissed when they don't feel like it, and soon. it is a broad category that is distinct from rape. so there is absolutely no way - using these same definitions and statistics - that the MRA blogs are accurately representing the data.

See my edited post. Again, I did not include all the subcategories of "other sexual violence", only the ones that I think should actually of been considered "rape" but wasn't. I didn't read the MRA blogs. Yes, the language sounds misleading but the statistics are there. I also admitted that it was still higher for women if you look at the lifetime period, so again I was looking at the 12 month period.

'sexual violence', even in the subcategories, is a very loose grouping that includes many activities that would not normally be considered violent. if your partner is angry and you try to kiss her, it could be considered sexual violence. that category is pretty even for the 2 genders over the last 12 months on the graph.

'rape' according to their definitions must be coercive or penetrative, so it is still widely disparate. 'rape' is the word the MRA blogs are using, and they do not qualify the time period or what should be included in the statistic.

i think that support for men in abusive relationships is spotty and sexist at best, and i think that big improvements should be made. in my personal life, i work at changing this through awareness and education. but it is counterproductive for MRA logs to misrepresent statistics, and it has resulted in a negative reaction to the blogs when they could be working to spread awareness with accurate information.

No, kissing your partner when she's angry is not included in either of the 2 subcategories of "other sexual violence" I was talking about because they both have to involve penetration of some sort.



Hang on, so in other words, you don't agree, for example, that if a woman has sexual intercourse with man (or even if she just gives him a blowjob) while he's sleeping should not be considered rape? Because that is actually excluded in the reports definition of "rape". If they do not agree with the definition of "rape" used in the report, then they are not obliged to use that definition. Some time ago, women's groups also quoted rape statistics that included things that were not defined as "rape" at the time and like those women's groups, the MRA's want the definition to be changed.

Let's put this in perspective. Here are the actual definitions given in the report:



Therefore, as I said, "rape" according to their definition does not include the scenario I gave above. The subcategories of "other sexual violence" to be included are:



Notice the similarity of this definition to the for "rape" above. Also:



Now, do you agree or disagree that "being made to penetrate someone else" and "sexual coercion", should of fallen under the category "rape", rather than "other sexual violence"? If you disagree then I would like to understand why. Otherwise, here is the breakdown:

Let's call rape under our own definition that would include the above subcategories. Therefore the total figures of what we would call rape are equal to their figures for:

"rape" + "made to penetrate" + "sexual coercion".

Now, unfortunately they don't provide statistics for the "made to penetrate" category for women, so for the sake of argument, we'll take that to be 0 (again, not because it doesn't happen but because there are no statistics). Similarly, there are also no statistics for men over the 12 month period under the "rape" category. So, over the 12 month period we have for women:

"Rape": 1270000 "Made to penetrate": 0 (no statistics) "Sexual coercion": 2410000

Therefore, we have in total:

1270000 + 0 + 2410000 = 3680000

For men:

"Rape": 0 (no statistics) "Made to penetrate": 1267000 "Sexual coercion": 1669000

Therefore, in total:

0 + 1267000 + 1669000 = 2936000

Therefore, under our redefinition of "rape" (as opposed to the definition used in the report), 3680000 women and 2936000 men were raped by their partners over the 12 month period. So, there are still more women but not by as much. Remember though that these figures would be different from the MRA ones because I also included a second subcategory of "other sexual violence" since I figured feminists would want that to be included as rape as well.

Now if we look at the lifetime period, then we have for women:

"Rape": 21840000 "Made to penetrate": 0 (no statistics) "Sexual coercion":15492000

In total:

37332000

For men:

"Rape": 1581000 "Made to penetrate": 5451000 "Sexual coercion": 6806000

In total:

13838000

So in summery, we have according to our redefinition of "rape":

Total number of women over the 12 month period: 3680000
Total number of men over the 12 month period: 2936000

Total number of women, in her lifetime: 37332000
Total number of men in his lifetime: 13838000

So, under the new definition, even over the lifetime period, this indicates that women are just under 3 times more likely than men to be sexually assaulted in their lifetimes, not 10 times more. That is still more women but it also still looks to me like a significant number of men. Now, if you disagree with these numbers, then I can only think that either you disagree with my redefinition or my calculations above are wrong. Which one is it?

The full report is here:

http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf

The rape of adult men is extremely rare except in prisons. Most male rapes are what we would consider to be sexual abuse(since the victim is a child and more than 9 times out of 10 the abuser is a older male).

Why is there a pissing contest over the numbers of sexual assaults male/female? Rape is immoral and illegal full stop. It needs to be taken seriously by the authorities and legal systems. Is someone saying otherwise?

That is often quoted but all the numbers I used above were quoted directly from the CDC report which I linked to at the bottom that post. The report also excludes all the cases where the victim was a child.

I agree but this is not a "pissing contest". The reason why I replied this thread was because the original OP of this thread linked to the website of an MRA group and several people replied dismissing the group as a group of misogynists who quoted incorrect statistics. While some of the things said on that website/blog could be considered misogynistic, I was trying to show where they might of gotten their statistics from.

What page #? I do wonder where the stats are about men are coming from. Do these stats also exclude statutory rape where an underage boy has sex with an adult woman? I suspect that a lot of these rapes of men are taking place in prisons.

But here's the hitch Jono, you live in South Africa which is the rape capital rape of the world. In fact, I read that there were more rapes in South Africa last year than there were in the Congo! So while male rape is a problem here in the US, in South Africa it has whole other level of severity. I hear that male rape is your nation is usually perpetrated against white men by black men and is done systematically to assert dominance over "the white man".

you cannot try to remove some numbers from one chart and add them to the other one, because they may be the same victims in both charts. so you are double-adding them. and even when you manipulate the numbers it still doesn't magically become an equal number of male and female victims.

i agree with TallyMan that this is a pissing contest. i work to support male victims in real life, and this sort of argument doesn't actually assist them. it's throwing around numbers when we are actually talking about human beings who could use support. so i am done with this.

On pages 18 and 19, you'll find the the 2 tables, where I got the figures. Actually, the report was specifically about intimate partner violence, so I don't think it would include prisoners either.



Mostly, yes. The figure usually cited is that 1 in 3 women would get raped in her lifetime in South Africa. I'm a bit out-dated for the figures for men but the last time I heard, it was as high as 1 in 4. I don't know where heard the black vs white men because the figures include all men.

Well Jono, I've read quit a bit about prison rape in SA which is FAR WORSE than in the US since not only are most prisoners black, but so are the prison guards and the guards set up gang rapes of whites for their own sadistic amusement. I've even heard about white men being arrested for speeding and getting buggered in jail; only to be released the next day. I'm definitely going to steer clear of South Africa for a while(no offense).

I apologise for going off the rails there. Just for the record, I don't actually support the group mentioned by the OP but I do think some of the complaints by MRA groups are legitimate.

Last edited by Jono on 27 Sep 2012, 10:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

You don't want to go to prison here. You are practically guaranteed to en up with HIV/AIDS if you do.

Becauae of this thread.....I ended up reading PUA blogs again. Thanks for linking me to those videos which lead to PUA article again (i saw the SAME video which lead to the SAME blog like months ago)