Understanding Feminism (Women: Your opinions)
20 Jul 2012, 7:52 pm
And I read your edit, Mds and am glad and grateful you're not trying to minimize or deny any legitimate issues that women face.
I guess it's common to hear people making similar arguments with the conclusion that "well, it's just as bad for men, so stop complaining." Or, "there's no such thing as sexism anymore."
It's such a loaded topic, probably because of the pain and fear that some people still feel, about history repeating itself. It's true that the men today are not the same men as those who oppressed women in the past--but I think the ideas were actually more dangerous than the individuals who acted on them.
But I have a son. I don't think it's fair for him to be drafted, or to be at more risk of dying a violent death. If I had a daughter, I would be equally distressed about the possibility that she would be raped or sexually harassed...or called a "slut."
20 Jul 2012, 7:57 pm
Kjas wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
nominalist wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
And that right there is exactly the kind of attitude I've been talking about.
What attitude? I am using oppression to refer to a social system in which one population occupies higher social statuses than others. By definition, men are wealthier and have higher prestige jobs, globally, than women. That is oppression.
All right, how about a social system which in which one population is vastly more likely to be the victims of violent crime. Or one in which one population makes up an overwhelming majority of the homeless population. Or one in which one population consistently receives harsher sentences for the same crimes. Or one in which one population is far more likely to have custody of their children taken away. Or one in which one population are the only ones who can be forced into military service. Or one in which one population has far less public money spent on their medical issues. Do these not count as forms of oppression? Or does it only count as oppression if it happens to women?
And even when discussing the employment issue, a part of the reason men hold these "higher prestige" positions is because their value is judged based on their income-earning ability, they feel far more pressure to sacrifice other aspects of their lives in order to attain those positions.
He says it better than I can.
Warren Farrell wrote:
“if a man feels obligated to take a job he likes less so he can be paid more money that someone else spends while he dies seven years earlier, well, that's not power.”
One cannot have a discussion about whether or not one gender is oppressed more than the other without taking both genders opinions of their circumstances into account. To do otherwise is, by definition, biased. There are very many men who share this opinion of the "higher prestige" jobs that they feel such immense social pressure to acquire.
Edit: and now I feel compelled to point out that I am not denying the issues that affect primarily women. Every single time I point out men's issues to someone who doesn't seem to realize that they exist at all, it seems that whole bunch of people pop up to remind me of the issues that women face. I know. Women face discrimination. Women's issues matter. I'm just trying to point out that they are not the only issues, as some people seem to believe.
+1
And this is why people like me do not consider themselves a feminist. To trivalise, deny or invalid the issues that men face in society is something I see over and over again when it comes to feminists. They scream bloody murder when someone does it to their gender, but they're more than happy to do it to the opposite. All it does is drive the divide deeper. People pick one side (feminism) or the other (mens rights movement) and fail to see that all it does is polarise people - they could choose the third option, and see this as a human rights issue and then we wouldn't have this constant polarisation of who has it "worse" or "more" or whatever.
Although you are correct in stating most feminists aren't extremists and that feminism gets a bad repuation from extremists (much like anything else, anarchism - those of us who are good citizens would have it ruined by extremists, etc), most of the women involved in feminism give very little time, attention, or recongition to the issues that men face also. Those that do are such a small percentage, that those of us who are interested in true gender equailty on both sides are probably loath to join the movement or label or consider ourselves as feminists for that reason.
You must have had a much different experience with feminists than I have. I've never even talked to a feminist who believes it's ok to "scream bloody murder when someone does it to their gender, but [is] more than happy to do it to the opposite."
Most of the feminists I've known have actually been more involved in other humanitarian social movements than any feminist movement. Plus, like I said--I've known male feminists who wouldn't scream bloody murder when they feel the male gender is attacked, but be more than happy to attack the other gender.
20 Jul 2012, 7:58 pm
Zinia wrote:
I disagree with some of what you are saying. Working class women have long had just as much pressure to make good wages as men. The pressure being from homelessness, and the burden of raising children and finding childcare as a single mother on women's wages are different than the pressure some men might feel about being high earners, though.
yes, working class women feel the same pressure as working class men to make decent wages. But, as soon as you move out of the working class, that changes. So, if the genders have equal pressure put on them in one social class, but one gender has more pressure put on them in all other social classes, that means that that one gender has more pressure put on them overall. And I sincerely doubt that he was referring to the working class when he referred to those "higher prestige" jobs.
Quote:
And I don't know what you mean by women having more public money spent on women's medical issues than men.
But I do agree that there are SOME examples of how gender roles hurt men.
But I do agree that there are SOME examples of how gender roles hurt men.
One example; breast cancer and prostate cancer kill comparable numbers of people. Yet prostate cancer research receives less than half the federal funding that breast cancer research receives. (edit: please explain to me, Nominalist, how this relates to maternity.)
_________________
If life's not beautiful without the pain,
well I'd just rather never ever even see beauty again.
Well as life gets longer, awful feels softer.
And it feels pretty soft to me.
Modest Mouse - The View
Last edited by mds_02 on 20 Jul 2012, 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
20 Jul 2012, 8:03 pm
Kjas wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
nominalist wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
And that right there is exactly the kind of attitude I've been talking about.
What attitude? I am using oppression to refer to a social system in which one population occupies higher social statuses than others. By definition, men are wealthier and have higher prestige jobs, globally, than women. That is oppression.
All right, how about a social system which in which one population is vastly more likely to be the victims of violent crime. Or one in which one population makes up an overwhelming majority of the homeless population. Or one in which one population consistently receives harsher sentences for the same crimes. Or one in which one population is far more likely to have custody of their children taken away. Or one in which one population are the only ones who can be forced into military service. Or one in which one population has far less public money spent on their medical issues. Do these not count as forms of oppression? Or does it only count as oppression if it happens to women?
And even when discussing the employment issue, a part of the reason men hold these "higher prestige" positions is because their value is judged based on their income-earning ability, they feel far more pressure to sacrifice other aspects of their lives in order to attain those positions.
He says it better than I can.
Warren Farrell wrote:
“if a man feels obligated to take a job he likes less so he can be paid more money that someone else spends while he dies seven years earlier, well, that's not power.”
One cannot have a discussion about whether or not one gender is oppressed more than the other without taking both genders opinions of their circumstances into account. To do otherwise is, by definition, biased. There are very many men who share this opinion of the "higher prestige" jobs that they feel such immense social pressure to acquire.
Edit: and now I feel compelled to point out that I am not denying the issues that affect primarily women. Every single time I point out men's issues to someone who doesn't seem to realize that they exist at all, it seems that whole bunch of people pop up to remind me of the issues that women face. I know. Women face discrimination. Women's issues matter. I'm just trying to point out that they are not the only issues, as some people seem to believe.
+1
And this is why people like me do not consider themselves a feminist. To trivalise, deny or invalid the issues that men face in society is something I see over and over again when it comes to feminists. They scream bloody murder when someone does it to their gender, but they're more than happy to do it to the opposite. All it does is drive the divide deeper. People pick one side (feminism) or the other (mens rights movement) and fail to see that all it does is polarise people - they could choose the third option, and see this as a human rights issue and then we wouldn't have this constant polarisation of who has it "worse" or "more" or whatever.
Although you are correct in stating most feminists aren't extremists and that feminism gets a bad repuation from extremists (much like anything else, anarchism - those of us who are good citizens would have it ruined by extremists, etc), most of the women involved in feminism give very little time, attention, or recongition to the issues that men face also. Those that do are such a small percentage, that those of us who are interested in true gender equailty on both sides are probably loath to join the movement or label or consider ourselves as feminists for that reason.
Yes absofrigginlutely.
I also now feel compelled to point out that I do not associate myself with the men's rights movement either. I found it interesting when I first heard of it but quickly realized that it, just like the feminist movement, had too many members who were incapable of recognizing that their own issues were not the only issues.
_________________
If life's not beautiful without the pain,
well I'd just rather never ever even see beauty again.
Well as life gets longer, awful feels softer.
And it feels pretty soft to me.
Modest Mouse - The View
Last edited by mds_02 on 20 Jul 2012, 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
20 Jul 2012, 8:05 pm
nominalist wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
in which one population is vastly more likely to be the victims of violent crime. Or one in which one population makes up an overwhelming majority of the homeless population.
Men are not more likely to be the victims of violent crime and homeless than women. The factors which predict those factors are not gender related. They are the results of age (young people and the elderly) and race (racial minorities).
mds_02 wrote:
Or one in which one population consistently receives harsher sentences for the same crimes.
Men receive harsher sentences because they are more likely to use guns than women.
mds_02 wrote:
Or one in which one population is far more likely to have custody of their children taken away.
That is true. However, social status (oppression) is not influenced by that factor.
mds_02 wrote:
Or one in which one population are the only ones who can be forced into military service.
Again, you might want to argue that societies which draft only men are unfair, but that is not an issue related to oppression. It is also not universal. Some societies draft both women and men.
mds_02 wrote:
Or one in which one population has far less public money spent on their medical issues. Do these not count as forms of oppression? Or does it only count as oppression if it happens to women?
No, it is not oppression. Women have more health-care money spent on them because of maternity.
mds_02 wrote:
And even when discussing the employment issue, a part of the reason men hold these "higher prestige" positions is because their value is judged based on their income-earning ability, they feel far more pressure to sacrifice other aspects of their lives in order to attain those positions.
I am referring to oppression as an empirical category. One can justify it for various reasons. I have my own opinions, but I am not going to judge the legitimacy of any of those factors.
I really do see these issues relating to oppression. Social oppression. Boys are expected to play with toy guns more than girls, as children. That probably contributes to the fact that more of them use guns as adults. Boys are often chastised for sharing their feelings, and expected not to back down to fights, lest they be "sissies" (which is a word to think about).
It's true that single mothers are the fastest growing group of homeless in America. But I am pretty sure men are more likely to die young in a violent death--maybe men are not as likely to be murdered by their domestic partners (women wear that crown), but they are more likely to be murdered. And I do see the draft as an oppression--it certainly can't be viewed as a privilege. Especially during questionable wars like the war on Iraq.
20 Jul 2012, 8:31 pm
mds_02 wrote:
yes, working class women feel the same pressure as working class men to make decent wages. But, as soon as you move out of the working class, that changes. So, if the genders have equal pressure put on them in one social class, but one gender has more pressure put on them in all other social classes, that means that that one gender has more pressure put on them overall. And I sincerely doubt that he was referring to the working class when he referred to those "higher prestige" jobs.
I think it really gets a bit complicated here. A working class single parent is going to have more pressure to make livable wages than a working class single person. Women do tend to be single parents more often, which is also a group especially at risk for homelessness.
Plus, working class women typically make A LOT less than working class men (from my personal experience). I'm pretty sure there are stats about how women get paid less than men for the same work in jobs across the board--but I would imagine that it's actually much more amplified in the working class, and when you consider the types of jobs that are dominated by men (such as construction and landscaping) vs. those that are dominated by women (such as childcare, care-giving, and house-cleaning). It's just as hard for a woman to get a job as a construction laborer, or to get a man to teach her the trades as it is for a man to get a job care-giving...but their is a HUGE pay difference.
Plus, in the upper classes, it's important to note that men might have more pressure put on them to succeed in their careers......but it's also important to consider that women might be more pressured to put their careers on hold for family. When men and women get married, men tend to become more successful, whereas women tend to become less successful, career wise.
Certainly this is complicated, and it's important to consider what you said earlier---it may be easier to see things a certain way because of your experience in your gender (be it male or female), BUT it's important not to discount the oppression or issues that the other gender has to face. Both men and women can suffer from the financial expectations that pressure men to be the "bread winners."
20 Jul 2012, 8:40 pm
nominalist wrote:
Men are not more likely to be the victims of violent crime and homeless than women. The factors which predict those events are not gender related. They are the results of age (young people and the elderly) and race (racial minorities).
simply false. According to the bureau of justice statistics (part of the department of justice), men make up 74.9% of all homicide victims. I'd say that's an overwhelming enough majority that gender is a useful factor in determining to whom these crimes will happen. Here's my source http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/gender.cfm
And as for homelessness
Quote:
GENDER
Most studies show that single homeless adults are more likely to be male than female. In 2007, a survey by the U.S. Conference of Mayors found that of the population surveyed 35% of the homeless people who are members of households with children are male while 65% of these people are females. However, 67.5% of the single homeless population is male, and it is this single population that makes up 76% of the homeless populations surveyed (U.S. Conference of Mayors, 2007).
Most studies show that single homeless adults are more likely to be male than female. In 2007, a survey by the U.S. Conference of Mayors found that of the population surveyed 35% of the homeless people who are members of households with children are male while 65% of these people are females. However, 67.5% of the single homeless population is male, and it is this single population that makes up 76% of the homeless populations surveyed (U.S. Conference of Mayors, 2007).
a bit of quick math, that works out to about 60% of the homeless population being male, compared to 40% female. Which again means that gender is a significant predictor. My source for that is http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/who.html
nominalist wrote:
Men receive harsher sentences because they are more likely to use guns than women.
i said "for the same crimes" here's my source for that Gender Differences in Criminal Sentencing
nominalist wrote:
Again, you might want to argue that societies which draft only men are unfair, but that is not an issue related to oppression. It is also not universal. Some societies draft both women and men.
Yet even those who conscript women as well have them serve for a considerably shorter time. Israel is literally the only country I could find that has obligatory military service for women as well as men, and there men have to serve for 3 full years while women only have to serve for less than two. And here's my source for that https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2024.html
_________________
If life's not beautiful without the pain,
well I'd just rather never ever even see beauty again.
Well as life gets longer, awful feels softer.
And it feels pretty soft to me.
Modest Mouse - The View
Last edited by mds_02 on 20 Jul 2012, 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
20 Jul 2012, 8:43 pm
Zinia wrote:
Certainly this is complicated, and it's important to consider what you said earlier---it may be easier to see things a certain way because of your experience in your gender (be it male or female), BUT it's important not to discount the oppression or issues that the other gender has to face. Both men and women can suffer from the financial expectations that pressure men to be the "bread winners."
I agree with you entirely on this. I'm just trying to point out that "men have higher paying jobs, therefore men are privileged and women are oppressed" is an oversimplification of the matter.
_________________
If life's not beautiful without the pain,
well I'd just rather never ever even see beauty again.
Well as life gets longer, awful feels softer.
And it feels pretty soft to me.
Modest Mouse - The View
nominalist
Supporting Member
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Gender: Male
Posts: 2,740
Location: Lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas (born in NYC)
20 Jul 2012, 8:46 pm
Zinia wrote:
I really do see these issues relating to oppression. Social oppression. Boys are expected to play with toy guns more than girls, as children. That probably contributes to the fact that more of them use guns as adults. Boys are often chastised for sharing their feelings, and expected not to back down to fights, lest they be "sissies" (which is a word to think about).
Obviously, anyone is free to use terms however they wish. The problem, as I see it, is that people often debate issues (like oppression) subjectively. My view is that oppression should be defined empirically - as measurable variables.
For instance, in talking about racial oppression, the evidence is obvious: American cities are disproportionately minority. American suburbs are disproportionately white. That eliminates "opinion" from the issue.
_________________
Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. (retired tenured sociology professor)
36 domains/24 books: http://www.markfoster.net
Emancipated Autism: http://www.neurelitism.com
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20 Jul 2012, 8:51 pm
nominalist wrote:
Zinia wrote:
I really do see these issues relating to oppression. Social oppression. Boys are expected to play with toy guns more than girls, as children. That probably contributes to the fact that more of them use guns as adults. Boys are often chastised for sharing their feelings, and expected not to back down to fights, lest they be "sissies" (which is a word to think about).
Obviously, anyone is free to use terms however they wish. The problem, as I see it, is that people often debate issues (like oppression) subjectively. My view is that oppression should be defined empirically - as measurable variables.
For instance, in talking about racial oppression, the evidence is obvious: American cities are disproportionately minority. American suburbs are disproportionately white. That eliminates "opinion" from the issue.
My problem with your view is not that you define oppression by measurable variables, but rather that you only use one variable, income.
_________________
If life's not beautiful without the pain,
well I'd just rather never ever even see beauty again.
Well as life gets longer, awful feels softer.
And it feels pretty soft to me.
Modest Mouse - The View
20 Jul 2012, 8:56 pm
Zinia wrote:
I guess it's common to hear people making similar arguments with the conclusion that "well, it's just as bad for men, so stop complaining." Or, "there's no such thing as sexism anymore."
I'm glad you see that that is not what I am trying to say.
_________________
If life's not beautiful without the pain,
well I'd just rather never ever even see beauty again.
Well as life gets longer, awful feels softer.
And it feels pretty soft to me.
Modest Mouse - The View
nominalist
Supporting Member
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,740
Location: Lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas (born in NYC)
20 Jul 2012, 8:57 pm
mds_02 wrote:
simply false. According to the bureau of justice statistics (part of the department of justice), men make up 74.9% of all homicide victims. I'd say that's an overwhelming enough majority that gender is a useful factor in determining to whom these crimes will happen. Here's my source http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/gender.cfm
It is age related. If you control for age, the gender differences are very small.
Young males are often risk takers.
mds_02 wrote:
Most studies show that single homeless adults are more likely to be male than female. In 2007, a survey by the U.S. Conference of Mayors found that of the population surveyed 35% of the homeless people who are members of households with children are male while 65% of these people are females. However, 67.5% of the single homeless population is male, and it is this single population that makes up 76% of the homeless populations surveyed (U.S. Conference of Mayors, 2007).
That is true. There are gender differences in homelessness. Women or men can come out as more disadvantaged depending on the questions one asks.
However, it does not change the fact that men have higher social status in almost all societies than women.
mds_02 wrote:
a bit of quick math, that works out to about 60% of the homeless population being male, compared to 40% female. Which again means that gender is a significant predictor. My source for that is http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/who.html
As I said, there are differences. It does not change the fact that men have higher status than women.
mds_02 wrote:
i said "for the same crimes" here's my source for that Gender Differences in Criminal Sentencing
That may be a result of laws in Texas. It is not universal.
_________________
Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. (retired tenured sociology professor)
36 domains/24 books: http://www.markfoster.net
Emancipated Autism: http://www.neurelitism.com
Institute for Dialectical metaRealism: http://dmr.institute
20 Jul 2012, 9:04 pm
mds_02 wrote:
Zinia wrote:
Certainly this is complicated, and it's important to consider what you said earlier---it may be easier to see things a certain way because of your experience in your gender (be it male or female), BUT it's important not to discount the oppression or issues that the other gender has to face. Both men and women can suffer from the financial expectations that pressure men to be the "bread winners."
I agree with you entirely on this. I'm just trying to point out that "men have higher paying jobs, therefore men are privileged and women are oppressed" is an oversimplification of the matter.
Well, maybe it's just more correct to say women and men should have equal access to higher paying jobs and job training (based on their abilities)--and equal choice.
nominalist
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Location: Lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas (born in NYC)
20 Jul 2012, 9:04 pm
Zinia wrote:
One example is that men tend to be expected to act more aggressive and risky, and that is probably why men tend to die of violent deaths more frequently than women.
Yes, the differences diminish with age.
_________________
Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. (retired tenured sociology professor)
36 domains/24 books: http://www.markfoster.net
Emancipated Autism: http://www.neurelitism.com
Institute for Dialectical metaRealism: http://dmr.institute
20 Jul 2012, 9:10 pm
nominalist wrote:
Zinia wrote:
One example is that men tend to be expected to act more aggressive and risky, and that is probably why men tend to die of violent deaths more frequently than women.
Yes, the differences diminish with age.
The weird thing with men acting risky and macho is that it is in some ways tied into society's legacy of denigrating the female gender. Being called a "p****" or "sissy" for not acting in a dangerous way, is partially a result and a cause of sexist ideas against women, and it ends up harming men too. Being told not to "cry like a girl" is damaging to girls and boys, because it sends the message that girls are inferior to boys, and that boys must not express their feelings.
nominalist
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Joined: 28 Jun 2007
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Location: Lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas (born in NYC)
20 Jul 2012, 9:19 pm
Zinia wrote:
The weird thing with men acting risky and macho is that it is in some ways tied into society's legacy of denigrating the female gender.
Yes, but it is fortunately much better than it used to be. Sexual harassment itself is a relatively new concept. Until about 20 years ago, it was commonly called: boys will be boys.
_________________
Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. (retired tenured sociology professor)
36 domains/24 books: http://www.markfoster.net
Emancipated Autism: http://www.neurelitism.com
Institute for Dialectical metaRealism: http://dmr.institute
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