Wernher von Braun and Intelligent Design in the '70s

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Awesomelyglorious
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20 Jul 2010, 4:15 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Although I personally do not consider government educational facilities a great place to learn anything other than "socialization" and sports, this is a letter by Dr Werner von Braun advocating the "case for design" to be taught alongside the "case for chance".

Letter to the California State Board of Education by Wernher von Braun,
September 14, 1972


Quote:
Dear Mr. Grose: In response to your inquiry about my personal views concerning the “Case for DESIGN” as a viable scientific theory or the origin of the universe, life and man, I am pleased to make the following observations.

For me, the idea of a creation is not conceivable without evoking the necessity of design. One cannot be exposed to the law and order of the universe without concluding that there must be design and purpose behind it all. In the world round us, we can behold the obvious manifestations of an ordered, structured plan or design. We can see the will of the species to live and propagate. And we are humbled by the powerful forces at work on a galactic scale, and the purposeful orderliness of nature that endows a tiny and ungainly seed with the ability to develop into a beautiful flower. The better we understand the intricacies of the universe and all harbors, the more reason we have found to marvel at the inherent design upon which it is based.

While the admission of a design for the universe ultimately raises the question of a Designer (a subject outside of science), the scientific method does not allow us to exclude data which lead to the conclusion that the universe, life and man are based on design. To be forced to believe only one conclusion—that everything in the universe happened by chance—would violate the very objectivity of science itself.

Certainly there are those who argue that the universe evolved out of a random process, but what random process could produce the brain of a man or the system or the human eye?

Some people say that science has been unable to prove the existence of a Designer. They admit that many of the miracles in the world around us are hard to understand, and they do not deny that the universe, as modern science sees it, is indeed a far more wondrous thing than the creation medieval man could perceive. But they still maintain that since science has provided us with so many answers the day will soon arrive when we will be able to understand even the creation of the fundamental laws of nature without a Divine intent. They challenge science to prove the existence of God. But must we really light a candle to see the sun?

Many men who are intelligent and of good faith say they cannot visualize a Designer. Well, can a physicist visualize an electron? The electron is materially inconceivable and yet it is so perfectly known through its effects that we use it to illuminate our cities, guide our airlines through the night skies and take the most accurate measurements. What strange rationale makes some physicists accept the inconceivable electrons as real while refusing to accept the reality of a Designer on the ground that they cannot conceive Him? I am afraid that, although they really do not understand the electron either, they are ready to accept it because they managed to produce a rather clumsy mechanical model of it borrowed from rather limited experience in other fields, but they would not know how to begin building a model of God.

I have discussed the aspect of a Designer at some length because it might be that the primary resistance to acknowledging the “Case for Design” as a viable scientific alternative to the current “Case for Chance” lies in the inconceivability, in some scientists’ minds, of a Designer. The inconceivability of some ultimate issue (which will always lie outside scientific resolution) should not be allowed to rule out any theory that explains the interrelationship of observed data and is useful for prediction.

We in NASA were often asked what the real reason was for the amazing string of successes we had with our Apollo flights to the Moon. I think the only honest answer we could give was that we tried to never overlook anything. It is in that same sense of scientific honesty that I endorse the presentation of alternative theories for the origin of the universe, life and man in the science classroom. It would be an error to overlook the possibility that the universe was planned rather than happened by chance.

With kindest regards.

Sincerely,

Wernher von Braun


Quote:
One cannot be exposed to the law and order of the universe without concluding that there must be design and purpose behind it all.

Rhetoric. Many people ARE, so von Braun's statement defeats itself a bit. I think biologists also have a good reason to disagree given the horrors within nature.

Quote:
what random process could produce the brain of a man or the system or the human eye?

Evolution, which isn't random but rather a process of selecting beneficial variations, and many people today are focused on explaining both by evolution. As it stands, I have a hard time thinking how a person who really knows how either works would attribute such a thing to an intelligent designer. The eye has a needless blindspot, and the brain is full of terrible thinking! I mean, if God designed the brain, why are there still creationists??? (irony of ironies :P ) The fact of the matter is that if the brain were well designed, we would expect a lot less of the sloppy thinking we engage in. We should expect more self-awareness, and perhaps even honesty. We should expect a set of intuitions that seems internally consistent.

Quote:
They admit that many of the miracles in the world around us are hard to understand

What miracles? I am guessing this is non-literal language that I am taking literally.

Quote:
What strange rationale makes some physicists accept the inconceivable electrons as real while refusing to accept the reality of a Designer on the ground that they cannot conceive Him?

Lack of solid empirical confirmation. Good logical and empirical reasons for disbelief.

Quote:
The inconceivability of some ultimate issue (which will always lie outside scientific resolution) should not be allowed to rule out any theory that explains the interrelationship of observed data and is useful for prediction.

Ok, good for that. That still doesn't mean that we are talking about a good theory though. The idea has many theoretical problems and problems as an explanatory mechanism.



Awesomelyglorious
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20 Jul 2010, 4:19 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
The arrowhead is nearly symmetrical and, well there are various forms of arrowheads some made out of steel, but lets say this one is made out of flint and its sharpness is due to pressure flaking in such a manner as to produce symmetry. The pebble which looks like a shoe shows signs of erosion along the grain.

So, you are saying that we have a known mechanism, similarities to other known man-made creations, and this mechanism seems best with a man-made conception.

And you are saying that with the pebble, we have a known mechanism, and that the mechanism tends to make more sense under a non-man-made context. Well, the question is simple.

However, how does this relate to ID? Life seems more like the pebble shoe by far.



iamnotaparakeet
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20 Jul 2010, 4:39 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
The arrowhead is nearly symmetrical and, well there are various forms of arrowheads some made out of steel, but lets say this one is made out of flint and its sharpness is due to pressure flaking in such a manner as to produce symmetry. The pebble which looks like a shoe shows signs of erosion along the grain.

So, you are saying that we have a known mechanism, similarities to other known man-made creations, and this mechanism seems best with a man-made conception.

And you are saying that with the pebble, we have a known mechanism, and that the mechanism tends to make more sense under a non-man-made context. Well, the question is simple.

However, how does this relate to ID? Life seems more like the pebble shoe by far.


Life seems more like the pebble shoe, as compared to what? There is more likelihood that the arrowhead was designed and fashioned by an intelligent being than the pebble shoe because the arrowhead is less likely to have occurred on its own. However, Paley's watch need not be looked at in relation to anything else either, nor does a tank, a shotgun, a flamethrower, a sword, etc. These things are all designed, we know this by history of course, but there are a few other aspects to them which also betray their origin in the minds of engineers and craftsman rather than by chance and natural processes alone. Can you see that?



Awesomelyglorious
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20 Jul 2010, 4:49 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Life seems more like the pebble shoe, as compared to what? There is more likelihood that the arrowhead was designed and fashioned by an intelligent being than the pebble shoe because the arrowhead is less likely to have occurred on its own. However, Paley's watch need not be looked at in relation to anything else either, nor does a tank, a shotgun, a flamethrower, a sword, etc. These things are all designed, we know this by history of course, but there are a few other aspects to them which also betray their origin in the minds of engineers and craftsman rather than by chance and natural processes alone. Can you see that?

Well, I think that in order to engage in an overall assessment, we have to engage in issues of the hows they were constructed, the whys for their construction, and other things. I mean, how do we know that we have a sword rather than something that was not made by a sentient being? Only by analysis.

As it stands though, a lot of features of the universe betray a profound lack of intention, so I can't really deny that or ignore it. I am surprised that you can do so.



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20 Jul 2010, 5:09 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Life seems more like the pebble shoe, as compared to what? There is more likelihood that the arrowhead was designed and fashioned by an intelligent being than the pebble shoe because the arrowhead is less likely to have occurred on its own. However, Paley's watch need not be looked at in relation to anything else either, nor does a tank, a shotgun, a flamethrower, a sword, etc. These things are all designed, we know this by history of course, but there are a few other aspects to them which also betray their origin in the minds of engineers and craftsman rather than by chance and natural processes alone. Can you see that?

Well, I think that in order to engage in an overall assessment, we have to engage in issues of the hows they were constructed, the whys for their construction, and other things. I mean, how do we know that we have a sword rather than something that was not made by a sentient being? Only by analysis.

As it stands though, a lot of features of the universe betray a profound lack of intention, so I can't really deny that or ignore it. I am surprised that you can do so.


So, for this analysis of objects to tell whether they are designed or not, you say that "we have to engage in issues of the hows they were constructed, the whys for their construction, and other things." And as such if a method of construction isn't known or the purpose of isn't known an object under such analysis would be relegated to the "not designed" category?

Image

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20 Jul 2010, 6:05 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
So, for this analysis of objects to tell whether they are designed or not, you say that "we have to engage in issues of the hows they were constructed, the whys for their construction, and other things." And as such if a method of construction isn't known or the purpose of isn't known an object under such analysis would be relegated to the "not designed" category?

Not necessarily, but it is certainly brings questions.



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20 Jul 2010, 6:17 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
I mean, if God designed the brain, why are there still creationists??? (irony of ironies :P )

If God designed the brain, why wouldn't there be creationists? If God designed the brain He would want people to know Him.


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20 Jul 2010, 6:39 pm

John_Browning wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
I mean, if God designed the brain, why are there still creationists??? (irony of ironies :P )

If God designed the brain, why wouldn't there be creationists? If God designed the brain He would want people to know Him.


And if God designed the brain to see to it that everybody knew Him He seems to have made major errors in that creationists are a rather small group of very ignorant people unaware of the accepted facts of evolution.



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20 Jul 2010, 6:57 pm

John_Browning wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
I mean, if God designed the brain, why are there still creationists??? (irony of ironies :P )

If God designed the brain, why wouldn't there be creationists? If God designed the brain He would want people to know Him.

The smiley reflects a joke.

You see, I am implicitly holding that creationism is obviously wrong, and as such, given that it is obviously wrong, the existence of creationists is a sign of severe mental flaws.



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20 Jul 2010, 8:15 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
I would think twice about what a rattling old Nazi rocket-maker thinks about "alternatives".


He's about as much of a Nazi as Oscar Schindler. He was even arrested by the Gestapo because he initially refused to have his A-4 program converted into a weapon, and he only agreed to afterward under threats and constant guard. At the Mittlework factory he argued in favor of better conditions for the workers, although on pragmatic grounds the same as Schindler had to.


He designed space stations for Disney as well. If he wasn't a signed up Nazi he surely wasn't too worried about associating with them. Or apparently with anyone willing to fund his research.


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20 Jul 2010, 8:21 pm

All of which, of course, qualifies him as an evolutionary biologist of the first order.



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20 Jul 2010, 9:53 pm

Macbeth wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
I would think twice about what a rattling old Nazi rocket-maker thinks about "alternatives".


He's about as much of a Nazi as Oscar Schindler. He was even arrested by the Gestapo because he initially refused to have his A-4 program converted into a weapon, and he only agreed to afterward under threats and constant guard. At the Mittlework factory he argued in favor of better conditions for the workers, although on pragmatic grounds the same as Schindler had to.


He designed space stations for Disney as well. If he wasn't a signed up Nazi he surely wasn't too worried about associating with them. Or apparently with anyone willing to fund his research.


Hmm, I wonder about the not caring about associations bit. Perhaps the whole "guilt by association" thing meant nothing to him?

So, what was his reaction to having his A-4 program turned into the V-2 program?

For what reason was he imprisoned by the Gestapo?



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20 Jul 2010, 10:00 pm

Sand wrote:
All of which, of course, qualifies him as an evolutionary biologist of the first order.


I suppose today, EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGISTS, are considered the only TRUE SCIENTISTS. However, the issue in origins deals with far more than just life itself. Intelligent design, in a broader scope, can consider the astrophysical properties of the solar system. Such as all those lovely little niceties which are just relegated to the Anthropic Principle's "It is because it is" similar to how the Pakled think.

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20 Jul 2010, 10:44 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
MONKEY wrote:
Intelligent design should not be taught in science classes. Not even as an "alternative". Creation is part of theology not science. and it should be kept within the realms of theology.


Why? You say it shouldn't be taught in the science classes, and the reason you give is based upon classification and not upon the reasoning for classification. In essence, you provide no actual reason but just a reiteration.

Because Creationism is as much as a creation myth as the sumerian creation myth and the aztec creation myth, which should not be taken seriously. That should be reasonable enough.

Anyway you already heard of the reasons, plenty of times.......
Quote:
For me, the idea of a creation is not conceivable without evoking the necessity of design. One cannot be exposed to the law and order of the universe without concluding that there must be design and purpose behind it all. In the world round us, we can behold the obvious manifestations of an ordered, structured plan or design.

He is invoking something (the designer) that cannot be observed and demonstrated throught the scientific method, as well as the idea is not falsifiable, that should do enough to put creationism in the trash.


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20 Jul 2010, 10:47 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Sand wrote:
All of which, of course, qualifies him as an evolutionary biologist of the first order.


I suppose today, EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGISTS, are considered the only TRUE SCIENTISTS. However, the issue in origins deals with far more than just life itself. Intelligent design, in a broader scope, can consider the astrophysical properties of the solar system. Such as all those lovely little niceties which are just relegated to the Anthropic Principle's "It is because it is" similar to how the Pakled think.



What is the problem with 'it is because it is'? Because the fact hurts your magical worldview? How about the purpose of the supposedly existence of an all loving designer?



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20 Jul 2010, 10:54 pm

greenblue wrote:
Quote:
For me, the idea of a creation is not conceivable without evoking the necessity of design. One cannot be exposed to the law and order of the universe without concluding that there must be design and purpose behind it all. In the world round us, we can behold the obvious manifestations of an ordered, structured plan or design.

He is invoking something (the designer) that cannot be observed and demonstrated throught the scientific method, as well as the idea is not falsifiable, that should do enough to put creationism in the trash.


How would you go about scientifically proving, through one of the scientific methods, that the pyramids had builders who designed them rather than them just being a natural occurrence?