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Grue
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07 Apr 2015, 7:54 pm

There's a quotation from Epicurious which reads;

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

There's also this from the King James version of The Bible:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

(a verse most seem to miss)

Not only is there anything God can do about evil, he/she/it is the one who creates it in the first place.

It makes me roll my eyes every time someone thanks god for sparing their lives in some kind of storm or disaster. 12 dead, billions in damage, hundreds homeless and the lady thanks a god who created the mess in the first place.

Don't you get it? If god existed, he's a cruel, mentally unstable little kid. I wouldn't worship him even if he was real. If there was irrefutable evidence god was real, if he appeared before me and performed miracles and crap, I still wouldn't bend my knee.

Here's a challenge to the faithful; go out and live your lives EXACTLY like the bible dictates. Down to the letter with NO CHERRY PICKING. You have to follow everything and if you happen upon one that you disagree with or is outdated or doesn't apply to us in today's society, you can't be that faithful and I call upon you to abandon your god. If you do everything the bible says, I'd like to see how long you go before you land in prison.



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07 Apr 2015, 8:11 pm

Some think God is sovereign and causes evil.



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08 Apr 2015, 11:05 am

I believe God gave us "free-will"----He gave us the power of CHOICE, by giving us the capability to do good or evil, and He promised us Heaven, if we do good.

It's similar, IMO, to when a dad gives his son instructions for how he wants his son to behave when they go-out to a restaurant, for instance, and tells his son if he's good, he'll buy him a toy. The child was given a CHOICE----do GOOD, and get a toy----OR, do bad, and suffer the consequences. The child chooses to not follow his father's instructions. Now, is the father gonna be hurt because his son didn't do what he asked him to do? Yes. Is the father going to disown the son for not following his instructions? No. Is the father going to forgive his son? Yes. Is the father going to give the son another chance? Yes----again, and again, and again!!

Now, lets take Andreas Lubitz as an example----God couldn't prevent him from killing all those people, because God promised us we would be able to make our own CHOICES (free will)----but, I believe, with all my heart, that God sent his angels to comfort those passengers' loved ones.





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08 Apr 2015, 11:23 am

This is such a pointless and puerile question.

The source of all consciousness emits all reality.

The world we know is limited to the human ability to perceive, which allows perception of only 4 dimensions: Height, Width, Depth and Time. Outside those four dimensions, are worlds we cannot experience from within the material human body, therefore the world as we know it is an illusion created by our physical senses.

Good and Evil, black and white, all are part of the perceptual illusion. If we are, in fact, beings of immortal consciousness, whose full existence is outside the confines of TIME, then death is no tragedy, so murder is meaningless, except as a social faux pas. All our conceptions are just rules of the Role Playing Game we're engaged in. The only thing real and lasting is LOVE, because we are all manifestations of ONE consciousness, existing outside of time, therefore eternal.

"Good" and "Evil" are just facets of the game. They AREN'T REAL. These boundaries are only in place to teach us values. Pain, death, tragedy, disaster, nothing more than movie props.

Some big, bad, judgmental "God" does not choose to inflict or allow negative occurrences. YOU chose that when you entered the game, as part of your character's development. Own the drama. You ARE God.


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08 Apr 2015, 11:39 am

God prevents evil through those willing to kick evil's ass themselves instead of asking God to do it for them.
I believe in God, but without acting ourselves to prevent said evil, instead turning our heads away from it to complain about him not doing anything about it, we are not worth his time anyways.


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08 Apr 2015, 12:22 pm

There's a big ole Gnostic explanation for whence evil came and it's got to do with Sophia creating the Demiurge Being who then brought this world into existence without the fullness of God, so the world isn't as great as the God zone. Sophie snuck off and had a creation moment that was hers and hers alone and since God is not in the equation, such a world lacks the light of God. Since the world comes from Sophia, it does, however, have a little potential, since she herself is a part of God.

Spirit is pure and good. When spirit is trapped in material, like bodies, or rocks, or trees, or weather systems, the goodness of the Pleroma from which spirit originates is severely compromised but our spirits can still sense it and strive toward it which is what you see in various religious systems. We are looking to reconnect with the Pleroma by using the Divine Spark within.

Sophia is one of God's Aeons, just a small part of the Pleroma which is pretty much the God Zone. Christos is thought of as an Aeon, too. Each have different missions and things to show those of us stuck in the imperfect Demiurge, so that we can find our Divine Sparks within. According to Gnosticism, the Demiurge being, who created this world, was brought into creation by Sophia alone without consulting the Godhead, and this is why the material world is so painful and brutal. But, we can still find our way back to the fullness of the Pleroma, the God State, if we can connect with our Divine Spark within and Sophia is willing to help with her wisdom. This inner spark is thought of as light and God is the divine light.

So, if you can find your divine spark within yourself, it is supposed to help you navigate the trials and tribulations of an imperfect world that seems downright treacherous and evil at times.

Knowledge of this condition is what is known as The Gnosis and to acknowledge it is supposed to put you on a pathway to salvation.



Grue
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08 Apr 2015, 1:06 pm

Yup, creates fallible beings, gets mad at them for being fallible.

Don;'t you get it? God creates evil! Cherrypickers...



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08 Apr 2015, 1:16 pm

Grue wrote:
Yup, creates fallible beings, gets mad at them for being fallible.

Don;'t you get it? God creates evil! Cherrypickers...

Another quote for when you can't see the irony...


I try to see the good in people but I can't do the same for God...


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08 Apr 2015, 1:47 pm

Grue wrote:
Yup, creates fallible beings, gets mad at them for being fallible.

Don;'t you get it? God creates evil! Cherrypickers...

But see, that's why the whole Bible thing doesn't make sense. Gnosticism is far more connected to the reality state. We look around, we see evil things happening everywhere. Take for instance a pride of lionesses killing a young prey animal for food. It seems so evil to us but the lionesses never question it for one minute because they have to eat to live and that is what they eat without question. Our inner light tells us it's sad that a young animal must die in order for another animal to live but that's the law of the jungle. We appear to be connected to something inside of ourselves the lionesses are not aware of and we reach the conclusion the material world causes what appears to be evil in our eyes.

One Biblical Paradox: why did God create us only to hurt us. Wouldn't that make God an evil entity of some kind. Bible never really comes right out and say God is evil but there are many instances where God does choose to hurt his creations so how is he a good God?

Actually, God is good, we just cannot experience the complete goodness here. We experience the world of the Demiurge instead and it's an imperfect world. God is far away and God is always completeness, or fullness.



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08 Apr 2015, 2:10 pm

Part of the Gnosis is realizing evil is part of the Demiurgent World and it's always going to be there because it's a condition of such a world. When you have a physical form, you can experience pain because of this form and most think pain is evil so how can you possibly escape evil in the material world? Most people do experience pain at some point in their lives.

Now let's take a look at one Aeon, Christos, or Annointed One, who seems to appear in times of profound torture and pain and we have seen that. He did appear into the world at a time when many people were hurting in ways most of us cannot imagine while the hoard stood by and did nothing or were even amused by it. Christos appeared and took the shape of the suffering and it did make a difference as to how we think about the ways we treat each other and what is acceptable and what isn't. Christos wants us to reject suffering we bring on ourselves and aid those who are suffering so that we can live easier lives in the Demiurge but we have to be open to his message and there are many roadblocks placed, most likely by Archons, who are Lords of this world and work against wisdom and The Gnosis so that less are aware. The Archons work against spiritual liberation so they may be fully in charge of this world but it's just an illusion. Some have even speculated Archons are extra terrestrials with an agenda, like they need negative energy in which to feed themselves, and their true home is another dimension that needs to feed off negative energy from this one, so they need the anguish in order to live.



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08 Apr 2015, 4:29 pm

Grue wrote:
Yup, creates fallible beings, gets mad at them for being fallible.

Don;'t you get it? God creates evil! Cherrypickers...



I have heard many a human say, at the birth of their child, "Look what we created". I have also known parents who get angry at their children for not following their guidance. To me, God (the Father) has the same relationship with humans.

I have also known people who, when someone's child exhibits behavior of which they do not approve, will blame the parent. I have also known people who will say: "It's not always the parents' fault". I feel the same way about God.





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08 Apr 2015, 4:46 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
Grue wrote:
Yup, creates fallible beings, gets mad at them for being fallible.

Don;'t you get it? God creates evil! Cherrypickers...



I have heard many a human say, at the birth of their child, "Look what we created". I have also known parents who get angry at their children for not following their guidance. To me, God (the Father) has the same relationship with humans.

I have also known people who, when someone's child exhibits behavior of which they do not approve, will blame the parent. I have also known people who will say: "It's not always the parents' fault". I feel the same way about God.

It's more like humans create their own problems because they lack knowledge. They can be ignorant. This could cause a small problem to turn into a bigger one and on and on until someone finally sees the light and figures out how to minimize the fallout.
It's not a bout a "God" figure punishing them. What causes humans to embrace ignorance and remain ignorant even when it is clear it is to their own peril and is only going to cause them harm? Great mystery there and that's where Archons enter the picture although it isn't clear what they are, exactly, but they enter humanity through great movements that harm humans or destroy the environment humans live in or blindside humans so they make really bad choices.

The God Concept is one of completeness so when you are with God, you are complete. You do not suffer the way you do when you are surrounded by your body, your flesh. So God does not punish. He cannot. It is a very abstract concept and one that defies consciousness and people will not like this idea of simply existing as a particle or atom but when you do, you have found salvation. So it does have an element of science but it's very strange, unknowable science, as in, we cannot know it with our five senses, our flesh, so it is very difficult to grasp but it might be a fundamental truth.

It's all about what would you be if you were not made of flesh, if you did not have the same kind of physical existence? It's unfathomable so long as you are in physical form.



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08 Apr 2015, 4:52 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
One Biblical Paradox: why did God create us only to hurt us. Wouldn't that make God an evil entity of some kind. Bible never really comes right out and say God is evil but there are many instances where God does choose to hurt his creations so how is he a good God?

Actually, God is good, we just cannot experience the complete goodness here..... God is far away and God is always completeness, or fullness.



Yes, that is definitely one of the paradoxes with which some people have a problem----but, I feel if it could be put in much simpler terms..... Again, going-back to the human father / son example..... A human father might get angry at his son for not following the father's guidance----he may hurt his feelings, by scolding him in public, for instance----or, he might create a sting, when he spanks him on his butt----but, that doesn't mean he's a bad father----in fact, some would argue that that makes him a GOOD father.

I don't feel God is far away, though----I feel his presence can be felt quite close-by----in our hearts, even, if we're open to that.





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Last edited by Campin_Cat on 08 Apr 2015, 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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08 Apr 2015, 4:58 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Part of the Gnosis is realizing evil is part of the Demiurgent World and it's always going to be there because it's a condition of such a world. When you have a physical form, you can experience pain because of this form and most think pain is evil so how can you possibly escape evil in the material world? Most people do experience pain at some point in their lives.

Now let's take a look at one Aeon, Christos, or Annointed One, who seems to appear in times of profound torture and pain and we have seen that. He did appear into the world at a time when many people were hurting in ways most of us cannot imagine while the hoard stood by and did nothing or were even amused by it. Christos appeared and took the shape of the suffering and it did make a difference as to how we think about the ways we treat each other and what is acceptable and what isn't. Christos wants us to reject suffering we bring on ourselves and aid those who are suffering so that we can live easier lives in the Demiurge but we have to be open to his message and there are many roadblocks placed, most likely by Archons, who are Lords of this world and work against wisdom and The Gnosis so that less are aware. The Archons work against spiritual liberation so they may be fully in charge of this world but it's just an illusion. Some have even speculated Archons are extra terrestrials with an agenda, like they need negative energy in which to feed themselves, and their true home is another dimension that needs to feed off negative energy from this one, so they need the anguish in order to live.



You and I have different names for the "characters" in this "play", called "Life", but our message seems similar. Good post!




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08 Apr 2015, 5:18 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
I have heard many a human say, at the birth of their child, "Look what we created". I have also known parents who get angry at their children for not following their guidance. To me, God (the Father) has the same relationship with humans.

I have also known people who, when someone's child exhibits behavior of which they do not approve, will blame the parent. I have also known people who will say: "It's not always the parents' fault". I feel the same way about God.



It's more like humans create their own problems because they lack knowledge. They can be ignorant. This could cause a small problem to turn into a bigger one and on and on until someone finally sees the light and figures out how to minimize the fallout.

I agree.

It's not a bout a "God" figure punishing them. What causes humans to embrace ignorance and remain ignorant even when it is clear it is to their own peril and is only going to cause them harm? Great mystery there and that's where Archons enter the picture although it isn't clear what they are, exactly, but they enter humanity through great movements that harm humans or destroy the environment humans live in or blindside humans so they make really bad choices.

Maybe these Archons are the same as Christianity's Devil's "helpers".

The God Concept is one of completeness so when you are with God, you are complete. You do not suffer the way you do when you are surrounded by your body, your flesh. So God does not punish. He cannot. .....

I, being of the Christian faith, DO believe that God punishes, however----I'm thinking turning Lot's wife into a pillar of salt, was definitely a punishment for disobeying God----BUT, if you mean God will not punish us, once we are rid of our flesh, then I agree.

It's all about what would you be if you were not made of flesh, if you did not have the same kind of physical existence? It's unfathomable so long as you are in physical form.

Yes, I believe that there are MANY things that we will NEVER understand in this life----but, they will all be made clear to us, in the next (meaning, when we get to Heaven----or, as you say, when we are no longer in physical form).



Last edited by Campin_Cat on 08 Apr 2015, 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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08 Apr 2015, 5:19 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Part of the Gnosis is realizing evil is part of the Demiurgent World and it's always going to be there because it's a condition of such a world. When you have a physical form, you can experience pain because of this form and most think pain is evil so how can you possibly escape evil in the material world? Most people do experience pain at some point in their lives.

Now let's take a look at one Aeon, Christos, or Annointed One, who seems to appear in times of profound torture and pain and we have seen that. He did appear into the world at a time when many people were hurting in ways most of us cannot imagine while the hoard stood by and did nothing or were even amused by it. Christos appeared and took the shape of the suffering and it did make a difference as to how we think about the ways we treat each other and what is acceptable and what isn't. Christos wants us to reject suffering we bring on ourselves and aid those who are suffering so that we can live easier lives in the Demiurge but we have to be open to his message and there are many roadblocks placed, most likely by Archons, who are Lords of this world and work against wisdom and The Gnosis so that less are aware. The Archons work against spiritual liberation so they may be fully in charge of this world but it's just an illusion. Some have even speculated Archons are extra terrestrials with an agenda, like they need negative energy in which to feed themselves, and their true home is another dimension that needs to feed off negative energy from this one, so they need the anguish in order to live.



You and I have different names for the "characters" in this "play", called "Life", but our message seems similar. Good post!



Thank you!