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b9
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27 Oct 2010, 5:06 am

in the beginning, i think that white people thought black people were dirty.
they did not understand that black people had more melanin in their skin to cope with their tropical environments of origin, and they thought that black people were just filthy and unwashed.

i remember reading somewhere that when australian aboriginals were originally sought to be indoctrinated into our world, that ladies felt that if a black person slept in a bed with nice white sheets, that they would soil them.

i remember reading that some aborigines were forced to take a bath with bleach in it, and their skin was rubbed raw by people who thought they could clean them with a good scrub.

i believe that the original basis of racism was because white people thought black people were very dirty, and that was why they were black.

---------------------------------

apparently, australian aboriginals and american indians are genetically the least intelligent races of humans. some of the books i read that i "borrowed" from the shelf of my psychiatrist had information that would be censored in the modern world.

i read that the average IQ of an american indian was 79, and an australian aboriginal was 81.

negroes were said to have n average IQ of 94.

i do not endorse or refute what i read.
-------------------------------

if colored people have an IQ that is less than white people, then maybe it is because they evolved in environments where food was abundantly available, and all they had to do was catch it.

white people may have evolved in colder climates where food was scarce, and they had to develop the tool of intelligence to trap food and cultivate it.

if the environment that one lives in provides plentiful nutrition, then there is no evolutionary need to think very hard about how to reap it.

if the environment that one lives in is sparse and barren, then it requires planning and design in order to secure enough nutrition to prevail.

---------------

anyway, i have no differentiation in my attitude toward black or brown or white people. they all seem smart to me.



iamnotaparakeet
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27 Oct 2010, 6:59 am

auntblabby wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Another key factor is the areas in which these people come from. They are not born with the same advantages and often become stuck.


What advantages are those? I'm white and I wasn't born into wealth and neither were most people that I've ever known born into wealth nor had advantages from birth.


this shows that the meta-issue is more about socioeconomic class, and less about race per se. people in the lower class need to band together as a united front and not be so insipidly contentious.


In what manner can a united front help? A petition for equality in welfare programs perhaps? It would certainly help with my wife and me right now.



number5
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27 Oct 2010, 8:51 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Orwell wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Quote:
Regarding black students and poorly-run schools: The problem I experienced while teaching was that administrators were only REALLY worried about their own paychecks.

OK. You're still missing the point: these schools suck. It is not the students' fault that they live in a crappy school district, but that abysmal educational system will deny them the opportunities they need to move up out of poverty.


As long as the educational system is more concerned with meeting demographic criteria rather than educating their students this cannot change.

These are mostly public school districts we're talking about, so I have no idea what "demographic criteria" you imagine they're trying to meet. They take whoever lives in their zip code.


So many special ed students to qualify for this or that taxation benefit regardless of whether they belong there. So many of these people in this program, so many of those people in that program, etc. It's a number game for pencil pushers at a desk job.


As a parent of a special ed kid, I have no idea what you are talking about. Kids go to the districts they live in. If, through an IEP, it's decided that the student should attend a special school, this school is private and funded by the child's home district. Maybe I'm just confused about your point.



iamnotaparakeet
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27 Oct 2010, 9:00 am

number5 wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Orwell wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Quote:
Regarding black students and poorly-run schools: The problem I experienced while teaching was that administrators were only REALLY worried about their own paychecks.

OK. You're still missing the point: these schools suck. It is not the students' fault that they live in a crappy school district, but that abysmal educational system will deny them the opportunities they need to move up out of poverty.


As long as the educational system is more concerned with meeting demographic criteria rather than educating their students this cannot change.

These are mostly public school districts we're talking about, so I have no idea what "demographic criteria" you imagine they're trying to meet. They take whoever lives in their zip code.


So many special ed students to qualify for this or that taxation benefit regardless of whether they belong there. So many of these people in this program, so many of those people in that program, etc. It's a number game for pencil pushers at a desk job.


As a parent of a special ed kid, I have no idea what you are talking about. Kids go to the districts they live in. If, through an IEP, it's decided that the student should attend a special school, this school is private and funded by the child's home district. Maybe I'm just confused about your point.


I'm not saying that there aren't students who fit into this program, however it is just like a mental hospital with regard to admittance - regardless of voluntary admission or not, once in they try to hold you in a death grip so as to leach all the money possible upon account of having you in their programs.



number5
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27 Oct 2010, 9:20 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
number5 wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Orwell wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Quote:
Regarding black students and poorly-run schools: The problem I experienced while teaching was that administrators were only REALLY worried about their own paychecks.

OK. You're still missing the point: these schools suck. It is not the students' fault that they live in a crappy school district, but that abysmal educational system will deny them the opportunities they need to move up out of poverty.


As long as the educational system is more concerned with meeting demographic criteria rather than educating their students this cannot change.

These are mostly public school districts we're talking about, so I have no idea what "demographic criteria" you imagine they're trying to meet. They take whoever lives in their zip code.


So many special ed students to qualify for this or that taxation benefit regardless of whether they belong there. So many of these people in this program, so many of those people in that program, etc. It's a number game for pencil pushers at a desk job.


As a parent of a special ed kid, I have no idea what you are talking about. Kids go to the districts they live in. If, through an IEP, it's decided that the student should attend a special school, this school is private and funded by the child's home district. Maybe I'm just confused about your point.


I'm not saying that there aren't students who fit into this program, however it is just like a mental hospital with regard to admittance - regardless of voluntary admission or not, once in they try to hold you in a death grip so as to leach all the money possible upon account of having you in their programs.


OK, now I see what you are talking about, but it doesn't really work this way anymore. Schools are not getting any additional funding these days for special ed kids. If anything, the opposite problem of schools denying services to kids with special needs via declassification is occuring. Budgets are tight accross the board and there is no money to leach out. Every last cent received for special ed is spent on special ed, and then some. Heck, my special ed kid doesn't even get a bus.



iamnotaparakeet
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27 Oct 2010, 9:24 am

number5 wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
number5 wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Orwell wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Quote:
Regarding black students and poorly-run schools: The problem I experienced while teaching was that administrators were only REALLY worried about their own paychecks.

OK. You're still missing the point: these schools suck. It is not the students' fault that they live in a crappy school district, but that abysmal educational system will deny them the opportunities they need to move up out of poverty.


As long as the educational system is more concerned with meeting demographic criteria rather than educating their students this cannot change.

These are mostly public school districts we're talking about, so I have no idea what "demographic criteria" you imagine they're trying to meet. They take whoever lives in their zip code.


So many special ed students to qualify for this or that taxation benefit regardless of whether they belong there. So many of these people in this program, so many of those people in that program, etc. It's a number game for pencil pushers at a desk job.


As a parent of a special ed kid, I have no idea what you are talking about. Kids go to the districts they live in. If, through an IEP, it's decided that the student should attend a special school, this school is private and funded by the child's home district. Maybe I'm just confused about your point.


I'm not saying that there aren't students who fit into this program, however it is just like a mental hospital with regard to admittance - regardless of voluntary admission or not, once in they try to hold you in a death grip so as to leach all the money possible upon account of having you in their programs.


OK, now I see what you are talking about, but it doesn't really work this way anymore. Schools are not getting any additional funding these days for special ed kids. If anything, the opposite problem of schools denying services to kids with special needs via declassification is occuring. Budgets are tight accross the board and there is no money to leach out. Every last cent received for special ed is spent on special ed, and then some. Heck, my special ed kid doesn't even get a bus.


Ah, perhaps I'm a decade out of date with the shenanigans.



AngelRho
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27 Oct 2010, 11:58 am

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
Pistonhead wrote:
Now the question is how do you get into a socioeconomic class? Is there some variable like possibly race that determines likelihood of acquiring social and financial status?


strictly the luck of the draw. you need to get the right genes, the right timing, the right place, the right family. it ALL has to gell from the get go, or else it's just zip.


I don't really agree. Statistics support the idea that the percentage of poor black folks is a lot higher than the percentage of poor white folks. Same with other minority groups.

Minorities that are born into a lower socio-economic class are less likely to go up a class than white folks are.


So true. I've written TOO MUCH about my opinions on minorities already. So why do YOU think that is?

To summarize everything I've said, I think it's because of the messages they are getting within their own culture. What I've generally observed is that those, even born to young, single parents, tend to perform better and achieve more and actually TRY to reach goals IF their mothers and grandmothers send the message throughout their lives that they actually CAN do those things. Would you agree that more blacks would be "high achievers" and escape class boundaries if more of them were getting this message as children? Or is it something else?



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27 Oct 2010, 12:19 pm

AngelRho wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

I don't really agree. Statistics support the idea that the percentage of poor black folks is a lot higher than the percentage of poor white folks. Same with other minority groups.

Minorities that are born into a lower socio-economic class are less likely to go up a class than white folks are.


So true. I've written TOO MUCH about my opinions on minorities already. So why do YOU think that is?

To summarize everything I've said, I think it's because of the messages they are getting within their own culture. What I've generally observed is that those, even born to young, single parents, tend to perform better and achieve more and actually TRY to reach goals IF their mothers and grandmothers send the message throughout their lives that they actually CAN do those things. Would you agree that more blacks would be "high achievers" and escape class boundaries if more of them were getting this message as children? Or is it something else?


That's definitely a huge factor. It's not the only factor, though.


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27 Oct 2010, 1:03 pm

b9 wrote:
apparently, australian aboriginals and american indians are genetically the least intelligent races of humans. some of the books i read that i "borrowed" from the shelf of my psychiatrist had information that would be censored in the modern world.

i read that the average IQ of an american indian was 79, and an australian aboriginal was 81.

negroes were said to have n average IQ of 94.

i do not endorse or refute what i read.

well, a lot of the IQ testing was historically very culturally biased, so it stops being a fair test of anything at all across different cultures. some of this has improved with more culturally-sensitive tests, but there is still a problem.

case in point - when i taught students on a first nations reserve (indian reservation) from 2003 to 2007, the majority of my students had never ridden on an elevator. they lived an hour's drive on a gravel road from the closest village, so the chances of them experiencing anything urban was quite remote.

the standradized tests of the day asked a math question about elevators. since these students had no experience with multifloor buildings, they had no frame of reference for the question. the students who did a lot of reading or watched a lot of popular media could reason it out, but the majority could not.

wealthier, educated, urban and suburban families with educated parents have certain advantages that are passed down to the children. a family that places a higher value on art, culture and literature (for example) will help their children to become more well-rounded and better-educated, and these students will perform better in school. the well-rounded students will also have more background knowledge to perform better on IQ tests.

yes, both white and minority families may be poor or uneducated, but if the rates of education of black (or native) parents is quite low compared to white families, then the children will often have the same disadvantages passed down. this situation is changing and it will continue to improve with intervention, but it is important to understand that the disadvantages of minorities are not caused by internal deficiencies but by external social factors.


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27 Oct 2010, 3:04 pm

[quote="b9"

apparently, australian aboriginals and american indians are genetically the least intelligent races of humans. some of the books i read that i "borrowed" from the shelf of my psychiatrist had information that would be censored in the modern world.

[/quote]

Really? Consider what the Cherokee accomplished. When their tribal mode was threatened by the whites they quickly adapted property ownership and the tribal chief invented an alphabet suitable for the Cherokee language.

Look at what the Aztecs and the Maya had before the Spaniards came. They developed positional notation for arithmetic hundreds of years before that came to Europe. The Aztec and the Maya used base 20 arithmetic. Apparently they also counted their toes. The astronomy of the Aztecs at the time the Cortez come to the New World was better than that of Europe.

ruveyn



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27 Oct 2010, 4:49 pm

ruveyn wrote:
The astronomy of the Aztecs at the time the Cortez come to the New World was better than that of Europe.

ruveyn


Actually, that would also be the Mayans.



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27 Oct 2010, 6:35 pm

Quote:
ruveyn wrote:
[quote="b9"

apparently, australian aboriginals and american indians are genetically the least intelligent races of humans. some of the books i read that i "borrowed" from the shelf of my psychiatrist had information that would be censored in the modern world.



Really? Consider what the Cherokee accomplished. When their tribal mode was threatened by the whites they quickly adapted property ownership and the tribal chief invented an alphabet suitable for the Cherokee language.

Look at what the Aztecs and the Maya had before the Spaniards came. They developed positional notation for arithmetic hundreds of years before that came to Europe. The Aztec and the Maya used base 20 arithmetic. Apparently they also counted their toes. The astronomy of the Aztecs at the time the Cortez come to the New World was better than that of Europe.

ruveyn
[/quote]

One of those books he borrowed may have been The Bell Curve. I think that was their line. It all just goes to show the follishness of IQ tests.
Quote:



iamnotaparakeet
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27 Oct 2010, 7:09 pm

Janissy wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
b9 wrote:

apparently, australian aboriginals and american indians are genetically the least intelligent races of humans. some of the books i read that i "borrowed" from the shelf of my psychiatrist had information that would be censored in the modern world.



Really? Consider what the Cherokee accomplished. When their tribal mode was threatened by the whites they quickly adapted property ownership and the tribal chief invented an alphabet suitable for the Cherokee language.

Look at what the Aztecs and the Maya had before the Spaniards came. They developed positional notation for arithmetic hundreds of years before that came to Europe. The Aztec and the Maya used base 20 arithmetic. Apparently they also counted their toes. The astronomy of the Aztecs at the time the Cortez come to the New World was better than that of Europe.

ruveyn


One of those books he borrowed may have been The Bell Curve. I think that was their line. It all just goes to show the follishness of IQ tests.


For the fixation of the quotation Ziggurat I have thus posted this post. As per the IQ test, it is an excellent example of the glorification of puzzle solving.



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27 Oct 2010, 11:08 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Another key factor is the areas in which these people come from. They are not born with the same advantages and often become stuck.


What advantages are those? I'm white and I wasn't born into wealth and neither were most people that I've ever known born into wealth nor had advantages from birth.


this shows that the meta-issue is more about socioeconomic class, and less about race per se. people in the lower class need to band together as a united front and not be so insipidly contentious.


In what manner can a united front help? A petition for equality in welfare programs perhaps? It would certainly help with my wife and me right now.


it means voting in your OWN best economic self-interest, and not get distracted by the unholy repub trinity of mass distraction, i.e. god/guns/gays. the repubs do NOT have your own economic self-interest at heart, only their own. so if you are working-class and vote for a repub, you have only yourself to blame when you get disenfranched [have only your voting rights denied/only your taxes raised while the upper income folk continue to skate by/have only your privacy invaded by bluenose right wingers/etc.] by the newly-re-empowered repubs, i.e., you may have voted for a repub because he claims to have "the fix in" for gays/dems/women/blacks/mexicans [fill in the blanks if you have any more hates you can think of] but you have really just "cut off your nose to spite your face." IOW any working-class person who thinks a repub will actually do more than just pay lip service for working-class concerns is just whistling past the graveyard.

so when i say a united front, i mean disenthralling oneself from the ballgame on tv, getting off the couch and either going to the polling place or filling out and mailing the ballot, and not only NOT voting for anything remotely right-wing but voting ONLY for the candidate and referendum/initiative bill that will enhance your own rights and not just that of the high-and-mighty. in my lifetime i have not encountered any right-wingers ['cept for nixon, surprisingly] who supported things that would help me and my class, such as universal healthcare or healthcare reform, so that leaves only the democratic party as the only realistic choice for the party that is even remotely in line with working-class needs and interests. sure, there is the green party but a vote for them only takes away from the democrats and NOT the repubs. otherwise i'd be a green party member. i learned my lesson when i voted for john anderson and ronnie raygun got elected. i have voted solidly dem since then.

the dems are hamstrung by the bluedogs in [ironically] reddish states who basically are DINOS, so if one is disappointed in what they have been able to accomplish, one might remember that what they did get done was in the face of a buzzsaw of united DINO/rightist opposition and overwhelming calumny on the rightist's part. the lion's share of this could have been avoided if only more working-class folk could've seen past the ends of their noses and got out and supported their democrats. remember, there are more of US [workers] than of THEM [upper-classes]. if only we had some unity of class, we could get a lot of progressive things done. so i say to my fellows, start paying attention to that "man behind the curtain!"



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27 Oct 2010, 11:12 pm

AngelRho wrote:
To summarize everything I've said, I think it's because of the messages they are getting within their own culture. What I've generally observed is that those, even born to young, single parents, tend to perform better and achieve more and actually TRY to reach goals IF their mothers and grandmothers send the message throughout their lives that they actually CAN do those things. Would you agree that more blacks would be "high achievers" and escape class boundaries if more of them were getting this message as children? Or is it something else?


so you are saying something along the lines of "it DOES take a village!"



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28 Oct 2010, 9:04 am

auntblabby wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Another key factor is the areas in which these people come from. They are not born with the same advantages and often become stuck.


What advantages are those? I'm white and I wasn't born into wealth and neither were most people that I've ever known born into wealth nor had advantages from birth.


this shows that the meta-issue is more about socioeconomic class, and less about race per se. people in the lower class need to band together as a united front and not be so insipidly contentious.


In what manner can a united front help? A petition for equality in welfare programs perhaps? It would certainly help with my wife and me right now.


it means voting in your OWN best economic self-interest, and not get distracted by the unholy repub trinity of mass distraction, i.e. god/guns/gays. the repubs do NOT have your own economic self-interest at heart, only their own. so if you are working-class and vote for a repub, you have only yourself to blame when you get disenfranched [have only your voting rights denied/only your taxes raised while the upper income folk continue to skate by/have only your privacy invaded by bluenose right wingers/etc.] by the newly-re-empowered repubs, i.e., you may have voted for a repub because he claims to have "the fix in" for gays/dems/women/blacks/mexicans [fill in the blanks if you have any more hates you can think of] but you have really just "cut off your nose to spite your face." IOW any working-class person who thinks a repub will actually do more than just pay lip service for working-class concerns is just whistling past the graveyard.

so when i say a united front, i mean disenthralling oneself from the ballgame on tv, getting off the couch and either going to the polling place or filling out and mailing the ballot, and not only NOT voting for anything remotely right-wing but voting ONLY for the candidate and referendum/initiative bill that will enhance your own rights and not just that of the high-and-mighty. in my lifetime i have not encountered any right-wingers ['cept for nixon, surprisingly] who supported things that would help me and my class, such as universal healthcare or healthcare reform, so that leaves only the democratic party as the only realistic choice for the party that is even remotely in line with working-class needs and interests. sure, there is the green party but a vote for them only takes away from the democrats and NOT the repubs. otherwise i'd be a green party member. i learned my lesson when i voted for john anderson and ronnie raygun got elected. i have voted solidly dem since then.

the dems are hamstrung by the bluedogs in [ironically] reddish states who basically are DINOS, so if one is disappointed in what they have been able to accomplish, one might remember that what they did get done was in the face of a buzzsaw of united DINO/rightist opposition and overwhelming calumny on the rightist's part. the lion's share of this could have been avoided if only more working-class folk could've seen past the ends of their noses and got out and supported their democrats. remember, there are more of US [workers] than of THEM [upper-classes]. if only we had some unity of class, we could get a lot of progressive things done. so i say to my fellows, start paying attention to that "man behind the curtain!"


I second this response, for the most part. Sometimes though, you can get a democratic candidate who is just really bad. In these cases, I put intelligence and integrity and the top of my priority list. If this means a republican might be the best person for the job, I'll vote that way as long as they aren't too far right. Sometimes, I'll even find a republican candidate who actually does appear to have the working class/middle class in his/her best interests, but this is exteremly rare, and possibly just a northeast phenomenon.

I also learned my lesson about 3rd party candidates the hard way. I voted for Nader. :(