The "Man Box"
28 Oct 2012, 5:02 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td1PbsV6B80
I just watched this very interesting video, and I completely agree with all of this guy's talking points.
I wanted to post to get a discussion going. Do you guys agree that the "man box" is harmful to men in our society?
Jacoby
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28 Oct 2012, 6:59 am
I think identifies good points but comes from an overly slanted perspective that demonizes men on others. If these male gender stereotypes(strength, courage, independence, etc.) are so bad to society then why are they encouraged in women?
I don't think I can agree that the idea that gender roles are completely the result of societal constructs rather than biological/evolutionary reasons. It's arrogant to think that humankind is somehow completely immune to the bonds of nature. I don't believe that we are born completely blank slates and that society shapes us. If patriarchy exists then it exists for a reason. That's not an endorsement of it but merely an acknowledgment of the differences between the sexes. Men and women are different, and both have different strengths and weaknesses. Man is man and woman is woman. Equality does not mean sameness.
From what I've learned of sexuality and gender identity is that they are at least for the most part innate rather than learned behavior. You can't raise a boy as a girl and expect them to identify as a woman as we've learned in the unfortunate case of David Reimer.
I'm kind of interested in hearing what feminists think of biological males that identify as a women/transgendered. I imagine some embrace that one is not necessarily bonded to the gender roles of your birth but on the other hand it raises serious questions about the origin of those gender roles in general if they accept that trans people aren't making conscious decision to identify as women. I imagine some are quite hostile to the entire concept.
MarketAndChurch
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28 Oct 2012, 4:11 pm
We say things like "Don't be a p****" because slandering someone by questioning the rigidity of ones sexuality is a great diss. Don't be a dick, or "she's such a guy" is never said as a compliment, either. Tell a woman she looks like a man, and tell me you didn't just rob her of something important to her.
It's not your man box that causes you to do these stupid things, its the restraints of caring what your sex thinks and cares about that causes you to do stupid things, paired with blatant sexism. Men care about what other men think of them, women care about what other women think of them as well. A sexist male won't need other men reinforcing his behaviors to behave sexist. And normal men who don't hold sexist views or behaviors at the onset will behave sexist if it is important to the way other men view him.
What has allowed you to rise above these restraints is your VALUES. Your VALUES can overcome groupthink, your VALUES can overcome evil even if society holds them as ideal. Your VALUES will keep you from raping a high-functioning Autistic girl and get help even if men are lining up to have their go at her. I'm sick of these morons coming up with stupid ways to frame the same thing, makes them sound smart, sells a lot of books, and lands them a speech at a TED or a spot on Oprah. Bravo.
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30 Oct 2012, 11:29 pm
I don't think I can agree that the idea that gender roles are completely the result of societal constructs rather than biological/evolutionary reasons. It's arrogant to think that humankind is somehow completely immune to the bonds of nature. I don't believe that we are born completely blank slates and that society shapes us. If patriarchy exists then it exists for a reason. That's not an endorsement of it but merely an acknowledgment of the differences between the sexes. Men and women are different, and both have different strengths and weaknesses. Man is man and woman is woman. Equality does not mean sameness.
From what I've learned of sexuality and gender identity is that they are at least for the most part innate rather than learned behavior. You can't raise a boy as a girl and expect them to identify as a woman as we've learned in the unfortunate case of David Reimer.
I'm kind of interested in hearing what feminists think of biological males that identify as a women/transgendered. I imagine some embrace that one is not necessarily bonded to the gender roles of your birth but on the other hand it raises serious questions about the origin of those gender roles in general if they accept that trans people aren't making conscious decision to identify as women. I imagine some are quite hostile to the entire concept.
I don't think he's demonizing men. He's just criticizing certain aspects of masculinity, which should rightfully be questioned.
Another thing I've noticed in American culture is that women questioning their gender role is seen as liberation, but a man questioning his is considered pussification.
30 Oct 2012, 11:39 pm
I don't think I can agree that the idea that gender roles are completely the result of societal constructs rather than biological/evolutionary reasons. It's arrogant to think that humankind is somehow completely immune to the bonds of nature. I don't believe that we are born completely blank slates and that society shapes us. If patriarchy exists then it exists for a reason. That's not an endorsement of it but merely an acknowledgment of the differences between the sexes. Men and women are different, and both have different strengths and weaknesses. Man is man and woman is woman. Equality does not mean sameness.
From what I've learned of sexuality and gender identity is that they are at least for the most part innate rather than learned behavior. You can't raise a boy as a girl and expect them to identify as a woman as we've learned in the unfortunate case of David Reimer.
I'm kind of interested in hearing what feminists think of biological males that identify as a women/transgendered. I imagine some embrace that one is not necessarily bonded to the gender roles of your birth but on the other hand it raises serious questions about the origin of those gender roles in general if they accept that trans people aren't making conscious decision to identify as women. I imagine some are quite hostile to the entire concept.
I don't think he's demonizing men. He's just criticizing certain aspects of masculinity, which should rightfully be questioned.
Another thing I've noticed in American culture is that women questioning their gender role is seen as liberation, but a man questioning his is considered pussification.
.......which is directly the result of men being more valued than women.
"Man traits" are good and something to be aspired to. "Woman traits" are bad and anyone embodying them automatically occupies a reduced social status.
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MarketAndChurch
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31 Oct 2012, 12:04 am
and "being a man" is not considered a compliment if said about a woman, by a woman.
For a woman to be de-feminized by other women or for a man to be emasculated by other men is not a fun ordeal, it is defacing them, and robs one of their dignity, especially if done in public in front of others.
In Judaism, it is a sin to rob someone of their dignity in public, it is as if you have murdered them, or in the literal sense, to drain the blood from their face. And this is how de-feminization and emasculation is often carried out, because you care about how your sexuality is viewed by your own sex who also has the same orientation, and you perceive your value amongst the opposite sex falling as well. Irrational? Maybe. But it is the human being, we should be aware of this form of humiliation, and not take part in it. Not because some man/woman box tells us to. That's an academic, and foolish take on the issue.
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31 Oct 2012, 5:52 am
For a woman to be de-feminized by other women or for a man to be emasculated by other men is not a fun ordeal, it is defacing them, and robs one of their dignity, especially if done in public in front of others.
In Judaism, it is a sin to rob someone of their dignity in public, it is as if you have murdered them, or in the literal sense, to drain the blood from their face. And this is how de-feminization and emasculation is often carried out, because you care about how your sexuality is viewed by your own sex who also has the same orientation, and you perceive your value amongst the opposite sex falling as well. Irrational? Maybe. But it is the human being, we should be aware of this form of humiliation, and not take part in it. Not because some man/woman box tells us to. That's an academic, and foolish take on the issue.
Agreed.
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"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."
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