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donnie_darko
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29 Jan 2012, 12:52 am

hyperlexian wrote:
so then there would be no reason for feeling vengeful.


In my opinion, there isn't. But if it was factual (that men oppress women in society in a systematic fashion), I could understand why feminists would be angry at men.

I don't see the point in being a feminist because the sexes have more or less an equal footing in society, just certain advantages and disadvantages.



Last edited by donnie_darko on 29 Jan 2012, 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

hyperlexian
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29 Jan 2012, 12:53 am

donnie_darko wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
so then there would be no reason for feeling vengeful.


In my opinion, there isn't. But if it was factual (that men oppress women in society in a systematic fashion), I could understand why feminists would be angry at men.

feminists don't seem to be angry. problem solved.


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donnie_darko
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29 Jan 2012, 12:55 am

hyperlexian wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
As for the pay thing - there have been studies that explain that. It's mostly because of the jobs women tend to choose and the hours they tend to work. Given the same job and same hours, a woman is likely to make just as much money as I would. Maybe at most bias, which I do accept exists against women to some degree in the field of career since traditionally the job was not seen as the 'woman's place', accounts for 5-10% of the 20-30% gap.

no, you have the studies wrong. women at the same job with the same experience and same education are still likely to get paid less.


Like I said, there is probably a 5% gap or so. Which is still bad, but not any bigger a problem than some of the biases against males.



donnie_darko
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29 Jan 2012, 12:56 am

hyperlexian wrote:
feminists don't seem to be angry. problem solved.


some of them do.



hyperlexian
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29 Jan 2012, 12:56 am

donnie_darko wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
As for the pay thing - there have been studies that explain that. It's mostly because of the jobs women tend to choose and the hours they tend to work. Given the same job and same hours, a woman is likely to make just as much money as I would. Maybe at most bias, which I do accept exists against women to some degree in the field of career since traditionally the job was not seen as the 'woman's place', accounts for 5-10% of the 20-30% gap.

no, you have the studies wrong. women at the same job with the same experience and same education are still likely to get paid less.


Like I said, there is probably a 5% gap or so. Which is still bad, but not any bigger a problem than some of the biases against males.

where is the evidence please?


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donnie_darko
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29 Jan 2012, 12:57 am

hyperlexian wrote:
where is the evidence please?


where is the evidence that the pay gap has to do with patriarchy and not other factors?



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29 Jan 2012, 12:57 am

I could be wrong, but I thought it was double that or more? I'd have to ask my mother, she tends to keep up on these things.


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29 Jan 2012, 12:58 am

donnie_darko wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
feminists don't seem to be angry. problem solved.


some of them do.

as a group it is ridiculous to consider that feminists are angry or vengeful or whatever, just like humanists aren't angry as a group. or christians. or men's rights adherents.


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29 Jan 2012, 12:59 am

donnie_darko wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
where is the evidence please?


where is the evidence that the pay gap has to do with patriarchy and not other factors?

i didn't say that. you said the pay gap was 5%. if you cannot back that up it must be made up.


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donnie_darko
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29 Jan 2012, 1:01 am

hyperlexian wrote:
i didn't say that. you said the pay gap was 5%. if you cannot back that up it must be made up.


It was just a guess! lol. I'm just saying that it's FACT that a large chunk, perhaps even the majority of the pay gap has more to do with women working fewer hours and gravitating towards professions that pay less money. I said maybe 5-10% of the pay gap might be due to discrimination; that's reasonable considering the pay gap is something like 25%.



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29 Jan 2012, 1:04 am

hyperlexian wrote:
as a group it is ridiculous to consider that feminists are angry or vengeful or whatever, just like humanists aren't angry as a group. or christians. or men's rights adherents.


Sometimes generalizing a group is actually logical. It's irrational when membership in the group is due to chance, such as race, sexuality, etc.

But I mean, wouldn't it be rational to say the KKK are angry as a group? Or that goths are depressed as a group? Sure maybe not every KKK member is that angry or mean and sure some goths might just like the fashion, but my critique of feminism is towards the ideology, not directly to the people who practice it.



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29 Jan 2012, 1:05 am

let me help you out:

Quote:
By looking at a very specific and detailed sample of workers (graduates of the University of Michigan Law School) economists Robert Wood, Mary Corcoran and Paul Courant were able to examine the wage gap while matching men and women for many other possible explanatory factors - not only occupation, age, experience, education, and time in the workforce, but also childcare, average hours worked, grades while in college, and other factors. Even after accounting for all that, women still are paid only 81.5% of what men "with similar demographic characteristics, family situations, work hours, and work experience" are paid.[19]

summary was from Wikipedia, but here is the original article:

http://myweb.uiowa.edu/noona/sf.pdf

Quote:
Similarly, a comprehensive study by the staff of the U.S. Government Accountability Office found that the gender wage gap can only be partially explained by human capital factors and "work patterns." The GAO study, released in 2003, was based on data from 1983 through 2000 from a representative sample of Americans between the ages of 25 and 65. The researchers controlled for "work patterns," including years of work experience, education, and hours of work per year, as well as differences in industry, occupation, race, marital status, and job tenure. With controls for these variables in place, the data showed that women earned, on average, 20% less than men during the entire period 1983 to 2000. In a subsequent study, GAO found that the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and the Department of Labor “should better monitor their performance in enforcing anti-discrimination laws.”


again quoted from wikipedia, and here are the original articles:
http://www.gao.gov/assets/280/279567.pdf
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d0435.pdf

it looks like american women earn about 80% of what men do, even taking a large number of variables into account.

you're welcome.


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hyperlexian
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29 Jan 2012, 1:07 am

donnie_darko wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
as a group it is ridiculous to consider that feminists are angry or vengeful or whatever, just like humanists aren't angry as a group. or christians. or men's rights adherents.


Sometimes generalizing a group is actually logical. It's irrational when membership in the group is due to chance, such as race, sexuality, etc.

But I mean, wouldn't it be rational to say the KKK are angry as a group? Or that goths are depressed as a group? Sure maybe not every KKK member is that angry or mean and sure some goths might just like the fashion, but my critique of feminism is towards the ideology, not directly to the people who practice it.

no, generalising about a group is rarely ever logical. and seeing as how feminists don't seem to be angry, your point doesn't really make sense.

seems like you were indeed critiquing the people who practice feminism (as opposed to the bolded). you were trying to make it sound like feminists deserve a negative generalisation of being angry or vengeful. it's rather silly when you think of it.


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donnie_darko
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29 Jan 2012, 1:38 am

hyperlexian wrote:
let me help you out:

Quote:
By looking at a very specific and detailed sample of workers (graduates of the University of Michigan Law School) economists Robert Wood, Mary Corcoran and Paul Courant were able to examine the wage gap while matching men and women for many other possible explanatory factors - not only occupation, age, experience, education, and time in the workforce, but also childcare, average hours worked, grades while in college, and other factors. Even after accounting for all that, women still are paid only 81.5% of what men "with similar demographic characteristics, family situations, work hours, and work experience" are paid.[19]

summary was from Wikipedia, but here is the original article:

http://myweb.uiowa.edu/noona/sf.pdf

Quote:
Similarly, a comprehensive study by the staff of the U.S. Government Accountability Office found that the gender wage gap can only be partially explained by human capital factors and "work patterns." The GAO study, released in 2003, was based on data from 1983 through 2000 from a representative sample of Americans between the ages of 25 and 65. The researchers controlled for "work patterns," including years of work experience, education, and hours of work per year, as well as differences in industry, occupation, race, marital status, and job tenure. With controls for these variables in place, the data showed that women earned, on average, 20% less than men during the entire period 1983 to 2000. In a subsequent study, GAO found that the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and the Department of Labor “should better monitor their performance in enforcing anti-discrimination laws.”


again quoted from wikipedia, and here are the original articles:
http://www.gao.gov/assets/280/279567.pdf
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d0435.pdf

it looks like american women earn about 80% of what men do, even taking a large number of variables into account.

you're welcome.


Okay, I took a good look at both of those sources. For the first one, the field of law is just one of many fields. I could point out that male models make many times less money than female models. In the big picture, neither is very relevant.

Their conclusions were not that this was the result of male privilege, but rather, of three things:

1) Women in the workforce are also less likely to work a full-time schedule and are more likely to leave the labor force for longer periods of time than men, further suppressing women's wages. These differing work patterns lead to an even larger earnings gap between men and women - suggesting that working women are penalized for their dual roles as wage earners and those who disproportionately care for home and family.

2) Men with children appear to get an earnings boost, whereas women lose earnings. Men with children earn about 2% more on average than men without children, according to the GAO findings, whereas women with children earn about 2.5% less than women without children.

3) Women have fewer years of work experience.


So still, it has more to do with the fact women tend to juggle career and family life than anything else.



donnie_darko
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29 Jan 2012, 1:42 am

hyperlexian wrote:
no, generalising about a group is rarely ever logical. and seeing as how feminists don't seem to be angry, your point doesn't really make sense.

seems like you were indeed critiquing the people who practice feminism (as opposed to the bolded). you were trying to make it sound like feminists deserve a negative generalisation of being angry or vengeful. it's rather silly when you think of it.


So if I said that I disliked the KKK because they were too racist (that is a generalization, but a true one) that would be irrational? Should I assume a good deal of them just joined because they like to look like a ghost? :D

I don't think feminists deserve anything. I just make an observation. Whenever I debate their dogma they always get so self-righteous and defensive.



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29 Jan 2012, 1:43 am

I feel a sternly worded lecture coming on.

And hyperlexian can do it. She has the teaching experience.


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