Does anyone else agree with feminism?

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Tequila
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31 Jan 2012, 7:17 pm

Should army tests be made less stringent to accommodate women?

Abgal64
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31 Jan 2012, 7:18 pm

Tequila wrote:

hanyo wrote:

I'm not really sure what you mean by extra privileges.

Should they get time off for things, extra childcare time, and so on, over and above what men get? Basically, I'm asking should we make special allowances for people that have a vagina?

If women want true equality, then they may get it. They might not like it when they understand what it means though.

No, they should be treated as a person of any sex would in a just society. I am for abolishing gender (which is distinct from biological sex) and thus all gender roles; gender is but a burden in society and ruins and wastes so many people's lives.

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hanyo
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31 Jan 2012, 7:21 pm

Tequila wrote:

Should army tests be made less stringent to accommodate women?

No, not if those tests measure skills that are needed to be in the army. If not passing means they can't do the job than they can't do the job whether it's because they are female or a skinny little weak guy.

Tequila
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31 Jan 2012, 7:32 pm

hanyo wrote:

No, not if those tests measure skills that are needed to be in the army.

A woman sued the police here for causing her distress because she couldn't finish the fitness tests. She was screaming discrimination because of her gender, yet she simply didn't match up. They even made the test slightly easier for her and she still didn't pass. Can't remember if she won, but people laughed at her.

Should positive discrimination exist?

Last edited by Tequila on 31 Jan 2012, 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LKL
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31 Jan 2012, 7:35 pm

hanyo wrote:

Tequila wrote:

Should they get time off for things, extra childcare time, and so on, over and above what men get? Basically, I'm saying should we make special allowances for people that have a vagina?

Of course they should, assuming they are the primary caretaker of the children. Men should get plenty of time off for childcare too if they are actively involved in raising their offspring. If they are a single parent I'd say they should be getting just as much time off. Someone has to take care of the kid.

I'm more interested in equality than in one gender being better than or getting more than the other.

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31 Jan 2012, 7:39 pm

Tequila wrote:

hanyo wrote:

No, not if those tests measure skills that are needed to be in the army.

I would say that it depends on what role she was applying for. If it was a desk job, then she could be 5'1" and 300lbs and still accomplish the work. If it was for patrolling the streets, then a person is more likely to be killed if he or she can't pass the tests, and the limitations are valid.

Fyi, the fact that a woman sued the police department does not make her a feminist and does not reflect on feminism as a whole, except to the extent that it can be a tool that is used cheaply as well as for good reasons.

hanyo
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31 Jan 2012, 7:39 pm

Tequila wrote:

I don't believe that is discrimination. If you can't pass the test then that means you aren't capable of doing the job. Even being a man doesn't mean you would automatically pass the test. I'd call it discrimination if you did pass the test but they then wouldn't let you in solely because of your gender even if you already proved you could do the job.

Tequila
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31 Jan 2012, 7:41 pm

hanyo wrote:

I'd call it discrimination if you did pass the test but they then wouldn't let you in solely because of your gender even if you already proved you could do the job.

I agree.

Should women be favoured over male candidates in job selection for 'diversity' purposes?

CrazyCatLord
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31 Jan 2012, 7:45 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

As long as you have multiple feminisms its tough to determin what's being asked. I believe equality is a great thing, I also think supremacy and the fish-bike thing was where a bunch of rather angry people with alterior motives started corrupting/polluting it. As long as its an environment where one self-proclaimed feminist can call another self-proclaimed feminist part of 'the enemy', it gets to be almost as slushy as asking whether you agree with neoliberalism/neoconservatism - another term that seems to mean whatever people want it to mean.

^This.

I think that women (and everyone else) should have equal rights before the law, as well as equal educational, economic and political opportunities. I guess that technically makes me a feminist or a pro-feminist.

But I strongly disagree with female supremacists and other radical fringe activists with an anti-male, anti-porn, anti-penetrative sex, anti-transgender, or otherwise crazy agenda. Which are a small minority, but a very vocal one that is the most likely to make headlines. As a result, many people mistake feminism for the hyperbolic agenda of these radicals.

Last edited by CrazyCatLord on 31 Jan 2012, 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LKL
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31 Jan 2012, 7:46 pm

Tequila wrote:

hanyo wrote:

I'd call it discrimination if you did pass the test but they then wouldn't let you in solely because of your gender even if you already proved you could do the job.

I agree.

Should women be favoured over male candidates in job selection for 'diversity' purposes?

I would have said no yesterday, but this morning I heard a review of a natural experiment that was done in India where random villages were required to choose female leaders on a rotating basis; having female leaders decreased discrimination against women and improved the test scores, scholastic retention, and ambition of girls, and the happiness of parents to have girls, in the villages that were required to elect women leaders - even after that requirement shifted to other villages in subsequent election rounds. Men and boys did not suffer scholastically or mateially (except to the extent that male politicians had to compete with women as well as men). So, for places where discrimination against a group is very firmly entrenched, quota systems might help to break through the prejudices of the population and make life better for everyone.

Tequila
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31 Jan 2012, 7:51 pm

LKL wrote:

So, for places where discrimination against a group is very firmly entrenched, quota systems might help to break through the prejudices of the population and make life better for everyone.

Might well increase hostility though. I suppose it depends on the nature of the discrimination, whether it is simply legal or is very strongly ingrained in the culture. You don't want to impose further discrimination as that could backfire.

hanyo
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31 Jan 2012, 7:52 pm

Tequila wrote:

Should women be favoured over male candidates in job selection for 'diversity' purposes?

I don't know. Ideally they would select whoever was the best candidate for the job regardless of gender and I certainly wouldn't expect them to choose a woman just for their gender when they could be hiring a much more qualified man. Sometimes affirmative action can be good like in times when they would not hire the minority even if they were more qualified but eventually a society can get past that and hire people based on their actual abilities.

abacacus
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31 Jan 2012, 7:52 pm

Yeah, a quota system is a simple and effective way to show a biased society that other groups (be it women, black people, what have you) are every bit as effective as whatever standard reigns.

The issue comes if the quota remains after it's purpose is accomplished.

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31 Jan 2012, 7:54 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

^This.

I think that women (and everyone else) should have equal rights before the law, as well as equal educational, economic and political opportunities. I guess that makes me a feminist, or at least a pro-feminist.

But I strongly disagree with the hyperbolic agenda of man-hating female supremacists. (Which are a small minority, but a very vocal one that is the most likely to make headlines. As a result, many people mistake feminism for the hatred and hyperbole of these radical fringe activists).

Yep.

Especially being gay I really try to distance myself from them, because so many of them are formerly heterosexual women who have invaded the lesbian community.

You have no idea how tiresome it gets. Maybe you do, though.

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hyperlexian
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31 Jan 2012, 7:54 pm

my employer realised that many of the jobs with a female majority (i.e. clerical) had lower pay than the equivalent male-heavy jobs (i.e. janitorial) even when both the male and female jobs required the same education and experience. so they bumped the traditionally female jobs up a pay grade. i think it was a good move, except... now the jobs are more popular with men too, so it's harder for women (for various reasons) to get either the male or the female jobs. so priority hiring could help

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LKL
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31 Jan 2012, 7:54 pm

Tequila wrote:

LKL wrote:

So, for places where discrimination against a group is very firmly entrenched, quota systems might help to break through the prejudices of the population and make life better for everyone.

true.

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