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donnie_darko
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23 Jan 2012, 3:01 am

artrat wrote:
Of course I agree with feminism because I am female.
Yes, I recognize women as human since I consider myself to be human.

Women are obviously different than men but we should be equal members of society.
Unfortunately we are far from this.
We are expected to wear makup and fashionable cloths. If we refuse to do this than we will be ridiculed and have trouble finding a job.

To be against the idea of feminism is a form of sexism. Yes, it is true that some feminist movements have gone to far.
They have become sexists themselves but this is only a small percentage of feminists.


Everyone has to dress nice if they want people to respect them and take them seriously. I know the dictionary definition of feminism is equality between the sexes, but the people who consider themselves feminists mostly have a chip on their shoulder, often because a man abused them.



donnie_darko
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23 Jan 2012, 3:03 am

AceOfSpades wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:

  • Gender equality is an ideal to strive for.
  • Structural inequalities that disadvantage women still exist.
No and no. Men and women are inherently different on a neurological and biological level. It is both men and women that enforce gender roles so it's not patriarchal oppression but a mutual thing. Gender roles do blow the differences between the sexes out of proportion, but for the most part they determine how these real biological and neurological differences manifest in modern society. I highly doubt that the manifestations of masculinity and femininity boil down to nothing more than "Cuz society said so". These social constructions are built on a foundation of real biological differences.


This.



donnie_darko
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23 Jan 2012, 3:04 am

hyperlexian wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
minervx wrote:
On this forum, I see plenty of misogynistic language against women, with even some users referring to them as aliens. It is too unfortunate, not just here, but in many places, that men blame women for their problems.


And women never blame men for their problems ever? What about that t-shirt 'boys are stupid, throw rocks at them'?

that t-shirt wasn't on this forum. so it's not a great example.

some women have blamed men for their problems on the forum, but the issues with sexism usually tend to come from males. that's not to say that sexism does not originate from females, but the large majority of problematic posts come from the men.


Maybe it's because women reject men far more often than men reject women and hence, more bitter males than bitter females? Just saying. 8)



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23 Jan 2012, 4:49 am

donnie_darko wrote:
marshall wrote:
I do think it's unfair that women are judged on their appearance far more than men are.


I think a lot of that is actually by other women though. It's scientific fact women are more picky than men when it comes to finding a partner and thus in a way you could say they actually judge men on appearance more, at least when it comes to sexually.

lol. scientific fact? no it isnt. in what peer reviewed journal did you read the study for this? pop science mags do not count.
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Everyone has to dress nice if they want people to respect them and take them seriously. I know the dictionary definition of feminism is equality between the sexes, but the people who consider themselves feminists mostly have a chip on their shoulder, often because a man abused them.

somehow i manage to take people who havent any dress sense seriously. women, more often than men, are judged on their appearance. whether it be by men or other women that is not the point. both genders are part of the same society that socialises people to judge women more harshly than men. it should not be that way. it is oppressive to women to have to conform to societies rigid notions of what is attractive and veer from what is not so that we can please others, especially men. feminists were all abused by men? i can honestly say that is the first time i have heard that before. is it also true for non female feminists i wonder?

also i have noticed a whole lot of biologically deterministic comments by you and others. a lot of the research that proves biological determinism correct is dodgey and has been debunked it. i recommend you do dome reading because that will give you a better understanding of why it is so hokey and the numerous studies done to disprove it:
cordelia fine's delusions of gender
deborah cameron's The Myth of Mars and Venus: Do Men and Women Really Speak Different Languages?
good places to start.



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30 Jan 2012, 7:58 pm

No.

I wish there were another option.

I don't specializing in anything and am not any kind of____ist.

I don't like to see things from a specific viewpoint, at least, I don't like to initially take information this way.

I support some feminists (SOME) but I do not like many. I was told I should read into 3rd wave feminism, I did. I get it, but it's not for me.


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iamnotaparakeet
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30 Jan 2012, 9:46 pm

Does anyone else agree with legalistic misandry, what?



Metalwolf
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31 Jan 2012, 11:13 am

I'm a feminist, a Christian feminist.

We fight against the 'gender roles' that the complementarians (the name of those folks that many people assume all Christians are) like to say is the 'Biblical norm.'

We don't believe that it is Biblical that there is unilateral submission imposed (the wife submits to the husband) when there is also a a call in the same Bible for all believers to submit to each other.

We believe that imposed 'gender roles' are the result of the Fall, when Adam and Eve's sin and were cursed. Before the Fall, they were both equal, as there is no mention of 'gender roles' before this.

There are also many articles by accomplished scholars that are suggesting that the old assumed 'gender roles' thought to be in the Bible are likely based on a faulty translation of a few key words, and a misunderstanding of ancient Jewish culture.


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techstepgenr8tion
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31 Jan 2012, 4:40 pm

As long as you have multiple feminisms its tough to determin what's being asked. I believe equality is a great thing, I also think supremacy and the fish-bike thing was where a bunch of rather angry people with alterior motives started corrupting/polluting it. As long as its an environment where one self-proclaimed feminist can call another self-proclaimed feminist part of 'the enemy', it gets to be almost as slushy as asking whether you agree with neoliberalism/neoconservatism - another term that seems to mean whatever people want it to mean.


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31 Jan 2012, 4:49 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
As long as you have multiple feminisms its tough to determin what's being asked. I believe equality is a great thing, I also think supremacy and the fish-bike thing was where a bunch of rather angry people with alterior motives started corrupting/polluting it. As long as its an environment where one self-proclaimed feminist can call another self-proclaimed feminist part of 'the enemy', it gets to be almost as slushy as asking whether you agree with neoliberalism/neoconservatism - another term that seems to mean whatever people want it to mean.
xactly

Exactly.

LOL the "woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" thing was so reactive and nasty IMO, I didn't even want to be associated with those women at a young age.

So, do I agree with SOME core values of feminism? Yes.

Do I want to be associated with the majority of self-proclaimed feminists or call myself one? No.


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hanyo
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31 Jan 2012, 6:56 pm

I agree with and am a feminist.



Tequila
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31 Jan 2012, 6:57 pm

hanyo wrote:
I agree with and am a feminist.


What kind of feminism? There are loads of different, often completely opposing, branches of feminism.



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31 Jan 2012, 7:07 pm

Tequila wrote:

What kind of feminism? There are loads of different, often completely opposing, branches of feminism.


I don't know what kind I believe in would be called. I believe that woman should have equal rights and be allowed to do the same things as men assuming that they are physically capable. They should be able to get the same pay for doing the same job as a man. I also don't believe in forced gender roles.



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31 Jan 2012, 7:09 pm

hanyo wrote:
They should be able to get the same pay for doing the same job as a man.


Should women get preferential treatment - i.e. should they be paid the same and have extra privileges?



hanyo
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31 Jan 2012, 7:11 pm

Tequila wrote:

Should women get preferential treatment - i.e. should they be paid the same and have extra privileges?


I'm not really sure what you mean by extra privileges.



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31 Jan 2012, 7:12 pm

hanyo wrote:
I'm not really sure what you mean by extra privileges.


Should they get time off for things, extra childcare time, and so on, over and above what men get? Basically, I'm asking should we make special allowances for people that have a vagina?

If women want true equality, then they may get it. They might not like it when they understand what it means though.



hanyo
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31 Jan 2012, 7:17 pm

Tequila wrote:

Should they get time off for things, extra childcare time, and so on, over and above what men get? Basically, I'm saying should we make special allowances for people that have a vagina?


Of course they should, assuming they are the primary caretaker of the children. Men should get plenty of time off for childcare too if they are actively involved in raising their offspring. If they are a single parent I'd say they should be getting just as much time off. Someone has to take care of the kid.

I'm more interested in equality than in one gender being better than or getting more than the other.