"It's my birthday, so vote against 'Gay Marriage'"

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06 Feb 2012, 4:22 pm

Gay rights opposition is hurting christianity. You've got a disconnect between the opinions of young people on the issue and the social cons and I think some christian orgs are getting the idea that they need to cool it on the issue.

puddingmouse
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06 Feb 2012, 4:23 pm

AngelRho wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

Metalwolf wrote:

And that using that tired 'civil rights' arguement really falls flat as gays haven't been sold as property or denied the right to vote.

They've been tortured and executed in the past, and this is still happening as we speak.

Is homosexuality in places where they are tortured and executed "as we speak" considered a crime and defined as such by the legal code under which they live?

Mostly, but occasionally it's just bigotry.

You can argue that we have no right to interfere in the laws of other countries, but when we're getting into torture and lynchings, it's a human rights issue. Homosexuality is illegal in Jamiaca, but so are murder and torture.

Anyway, that's besides my point. I was pointing out to Metalwolf that discrimination against homosexuals is very, very real.

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abacacus
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06 Feb 2012, 4:28 pm

Metalwolf wrote:

How can you compare a mere sexual preferance to being discriminated on concrete physical differences? And that using that tired 'civil rights' arguement really falls flat as gays haven't been sold as property or denied the right to vote.

I've tried finding them about the UK. I just can't. Not because there is a lesser amount of depression in gays there, but because they don't seem to exist, period. I'd love to see them, heck maybe they might prove me wrong. But finding actual graph statistics instead of just quotes is very hard.

Edit: This thread is also a bit boring to stay in. It was fun while it lasted, but I really meant to say just one post and be done with it. I normally stay out of gay-themed threads because I hate endless debating. So, tootles!

Skin colour, gender, sexual preference... why are any of these a better reason to discriminate than any other? It's okay to discriminate just because they like the same sex? They may be able to vote, but in many places the only right they have is to be killed.

Gay people do tend to be more depressed, because of people like yourself who see fit to belittle them and treat them as second class citizens. You wouldn't be happy if people did that to you either.

Good riddance.

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AngelRho
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06 Feb 2012, 4:32 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

AngelRho wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

Metalwolf wrote:

And that using that tired 'civil rights' arguement really falls flat as gays haven't been sold as property or denied the right to vote.

They've been tortured and executed in the past, and this is still happening as we speak.

Is homosexuality in places where they are tortured and executed "as we speak" considered a crime and defined as such by the legal code under which they live?

I'm against torture, but I also might disagree on what constitutes torture and when/where it's appropriate. I don't think torture is appropriate for crime and punishment, for example. If something is illegal, either kill them or imprison them. There is no point to torture.

If a society believes something to be immoral, then society must live according to its convictions. I think we DO have the right to tell other countries what to do. I just happen to believe that homosexuality is immoral and would support societies that hold that it is a criminal activity.

I also believe that mercy is more noble than justice. Take that as you will...

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06 Feb 2012, 4:36 pm

AngelRho wrote:

If a society believes something to be immoral, then society must live according to its convictions. I think we DO have the right to tell other countries what to do. I just happen to believe that homosexuality is immoral and would support societies that hold that it is a criminal activity.
I also believe that mercy is more noble than justice. Take that as you will...

Gwah?!

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puddingmouse
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06 Feb 2012, 4:41 pm

AngelRho wrote:

I also believe we have the right to tell other countries what to do in some circumstances, I'm glad we are on the same sheet regarding this.

Okay:

1. You consider homosexuality immoral.
2. You support societies that uphold it as a criminal activity.

I have two questions for you:
1. The penalty for male homosexual acts in Jamaica is 10 years in prison. Do you support a society that would do this?
2. The penalty for male homosexual acts in Iran is death (method of execution decided by a judge). Boys who have gay sex underage get 74 lashes. Do you support a society that would do this?

If you answer 'yes' to any of those (even with qualifications), I'm not comfortable talking to you, and I suggest we avoid each other on the forums.

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06 Feb 2012, 4:44 pm

MarsCoban wrote:

AngelRho wrote:

Gwah?!

I believe that there are no such things as action that do not affect everyone on the planet at all in some way. The good you do benefits all people. The evil you do harms all people. A government with the means to end senseless genocide should step in, even if it's "none of your business."

I also believe that punishment should always fit the crime. Further, justice is ALWAYS deserved. Mercy (in the context of crime/punishment) is NEVER deserved. It is more noble show mercy and forgive the guilty than to relentlessly and unemotionally punish them.

abacacus
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06 Feb 2012, 4:44 pm

WHAT?!?!?!?

YOU think it's immoral to be gay and so YOUR opinion is enough to completely ban it? Make it criminal?

I think bigotry is amazingly offensive, I think it should be banned, I think you should spend the next few years in prison, but guess what? That aint gonna happen unfortunately, and neither is criminalization of homosexuality.

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06 Feb 2012, 4:52 pm

Metalwolf wrote:

CrazyCatLord wrote:

Supporting equal rights for everybody is the "in thing", and has been "in" for quite some time. It is also the moral thing and the right thing to do. Or would you make the same comment about black rights and women's rights?

They are, however, not allowed to marry the person they love in many parts of the Western World. Which means they are denied rights such as such as joint ownership. Hospitals can refuse them the right to visit their life partners, don't need to consult or inform them about medical treatment, and can't designate them to authorize treatment even if they wanted to. Gays are even denied the right to bury their deceased partners in some cases, and many countries don't allow gay couples to adopt.

That's aside from the many incidents of civil discrimination, such as not being allowed to bring a same-sex partner to a prom, or being asked to leave restaurants, museums, parks, and other places for holding hands or kissing in public. Gays are also not allowed to give blood or donate organs.

Btw, being gay is not just a "mere sexual preference", it is a sexual identity and an example of neurodiversity. In other words, it does not only affect whom you want to sleep with, but whom you want to spend your entire life with, raise children with, and grow old with. Which is exactly the right that gays are denied.

Quote:

CrazyCatLord wrote:

I would like to see some statistics on that. Not that I doubt that gay and other LGBT people suffer from depression more often than heterosexual cisgender people, simply because they are bullied and discriminated against (and because people write all kinds of BS about them on internet forums).

I've tried finding them about the UK. I just can't. Not because there is a lesser amount of depression in gays there, but because they don't seem to exist, period. I'd love to see them, heck maybe they might prove me wrong. But finding actual graph statistics instead of just quotes is very hard.

Edit: This thread is also a bit boring to stay in. It was fun while it lasted, but I really meant to say just one post and be done with it. I normally stay out of gay-themed threads because I hate endless debating. So, tootles!

If these statistics don't exist, what was your claim based on? It seems to me that you just pulled that out of thin air.

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06 Feb 2012, 4:53 pm

AngelRho wrote:

I believe that there are no such things as action that do not affect everyone on the planet at all in some way.

Agreed.

Quote:

The good you do benefits all people. The evil you do harms all people.

But you haven't proved that being a homosexual is evil, or that allowing gays to marry would or does do direct harm to people, excepting in insulting their beliefs.

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06 Feb 2012, 4:54 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:

Metalwolf, since it's only a "mere sexual preference", I suppose it wouldn't upset you if they passed a law that said you could only marry someone of your own gender. That wouldn't be discrimination at all, would it? Not over a mere sexual preference.

Good point

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06 Feb 2012, 5:01 pm

AngelRho wrote:

If a society believes something to be immoral, then society must live according to its convictions. I think we DO have the right to tell other countries what to do. I just happen to believe that homosexuality is immoral and would support societies that hold that it is a criminal activity.

Society doesn't believe homosexuality to be immoral though. Even in the USA, the majority of the population has no problem with gays, and 53% think that gay marriage should be legal.
Source: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national ... age/37962/

Homosexuality is a trait that people are born with, people who have consensual relationships with adult partners and don't harm anybody. How could that possibly immoral? Only a relatively small number of religious bigots believe that. Alas, they are very vocal and politically active.

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06 Feb 2012, 5:04 pm

AngelRho wrote:

The evil you do harms all people.

It certainly does. Some bullied gay teenager could be reading your posts, decide that this is the last straw that breaks the camel's back, and try to kill himself. Discrimination does a lot more harm than people realize.

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06 Feb 2012, 5:23 pm

hmpf any mention by any brand of christian about gays hurting society should look at the bull they spew themselves first.

frank enough?

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06 Feb 2012, 5:55 pm

AngelRho wrote:

MarsCoban wrote:

AngelRho wrote:

Gwah?!

Please provide evidence that being homosexual is evil and/or harmful. Actual tangible evidence. Not another wordy post about the sanctity of marriage.

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06 Feb 2012, 6:37 pm

AngelRho wrote:

Note that this response did not answer puddingmouse's questions. If you are going to say it should be illegal, you should know what punishment should be acceptable and what societies do it right. It is just a couple of sentences.

I'm interested to know this answer too. I think a lot people are. Here, I'll post it again:

puddingmouse wrote:

Okay:

1. You consider homosexuality immoral.
2. You support societies that uphold it as a criminal activity.

I have two questions for you:
1. The penalty for male homosexual acts in Jamaica is 10 years in prison. Do you support a society that would do this?
2. The penalty for male homosexual acts in Iran is death (method of execution decided by a judge). Boys who have gay sex underage get 74 lashes. Do you support a society that would do this?

Also, as an addendum to TeaEarlGreyHot's post, I would like to see evidence that homosexuality is harmful to society from a report that does not come from an anti-gay activist viewpoint. Those don't count, obviously.

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