Shoot first law: What could possibly go wrong?

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Being scared and having a incompetent school administration is a common reason why kids bring weapons to school. He had a knife, but he tried to avoid using it. People trying to be the alpha male don't withdraw from a situation to avoid conflict. A duty to retreat would not have made things any better.

Here are some interesting bits. http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2011/dec ... hreatened/

--- Kids on the bus were pushing the fight. Both were heard saying they didnt want to fight. Sounds like the crowd, or his buddies, pushed the fight.

--- Both were of similar size and weight.

--- Both dated the same girl at one point.

--- Showed the knife to two boys on the bus, not the first time he carried one.

---The kid stabbed him 12x after taking a single hit, without punching back. He pushed back once and was stepping back (not fleeing exactly), then stabbed him 12x.

Up until the killing, it sounds like the kind of routine kid fight that happens anywhere in the world. There is no reason to tell kids they can legally start butchering each other. Crazy.

[quote]over 300,000 homicides[quote]

Yeah, might be close to 300k if you include game animals legally taken with firearms to include varmints.
I guess at this pathetic point anything goes....

If that's truly the case, then why did Nuno pursue and then proceed to punch Saaveda in the back of the head? Why didn't he have the self control to remain on the back of the bus when Saaveda got off the bus several stops before where the fight was to take place?



More importantly, was Nuno physically stronger than Saavedra? The article is silent on this. It's also silent on just how much the other kids who sat with Nuno participated in the fight, yet from what we can discern they made "threatening comments" which would give any person reason for concern. They demonstrated the intent to follow through on those threats by getting up and pursing Saavedra despite his attempts to avoid a hostile situation altogether by getting off the bus several stops before his own . Being pursued by someone who has harassed you on multiple occasions along with two or three others that made unambiguous threats like "today's the day we're going to get you" is enough to make any reasonable person fear for their safety.

Additionally, even if we were to assume that Nuno and Saavedra were equal in terms of physical strength, there was still a disparity of force in that Saavedra faced not one but three or four possible attackers, and a “fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm" would not be at all unreasonable given the circumstances. What would you have had him do? Curl up in a fetal position while Nuno and his buddies took turns punching and kicking him?



She first dated Nuno, and then briefly dated Saavedra. Usually, it's the other way around when citing the "jealous lover" theory as a motive.



When did he obtain the knife? What were his reasons for doing so? When did he start carrying one on a regular basis? The article tells us nothing about this. Furthermore, bringing a knife or any other weapon to school is a felony under existing law, and Saavadra is more than likely facing charges for that in addition to expulsion from school, so it's not like he's getting away scot-free.



Except that facing three or four potential attackers who had already demonstrated the intent to follow through with their threats is not exactly a "fair fight." Furthermore, the possibility exists that Nuno struck Saavedra from behind with enough force to cause a mild concussion, as he "started getting lightheaded" afterward. Saavedra's fear for his own life was not idiosyncratic in light of the circumstances.



So why did Nuno's parents fail to prevent this? Why did the bus driver and school officials not intervene before things escalated to that point? Why should we lay the blame for this at the doorstep of Florida's judicial system?

--- Kids on the bus were pushing the fight. Both were heard saying they didnt want to fight. Sounds like the crowd, or his buddies, pushed the fight.

He may have said he didn't want to fight but he did follow someone off the bus to start crap.

--- Both were of similar size and weight.

I'm fairly close to the height and weight of Randy Coture but I'd be afraid to fight him.

--- Both dated the same girl at one point.

What does that have to do with a physical threat?

--- Showed the knife to two boys on the bus, not the first time he carried one.

He played show and tell, he didn't brandish it. Haven't you ever showed something off?

---The kid stabbed him 12x after taking a single hit, without punching back. He pushed back once and was stepping back (not fleeing exactly), then stabbed him 12x.

I've pushed people back before and they didn't go away. When they didn't go away I have won with a single decisive hit without getting hit back. I'm too slow to run away.

Up until the killing, it sounds like the kind of routine kid fight that happens anywhere in the world. There is no reason to tell kids they can legally start butchering each other. Crazy.[/quote]

What's crazy is the court of public opinion. There are a lot of factors that could have made the self defense legit, and neither of us have enough evidence to convict or acquit.

Hi Raptor,

I thought it was poor American English usage, but as with "John_Browning" here*, you apparently also do not consider many other people as being of your species.

"This birthmark on my skin" signifies my Human manifestation, but "What Fools Mere Mortals Be........! !!"



http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp2527348 ... t=#2527348

Tadzio

*

It's about not counting people that made a choice to die or live dangerously. I only wish the statistics segregated categories for people who were involved in criminal activities and accidental self-inflicted stupidity so we could identify how many truly innocent victims there are. People killing themselves, criminals getting killed by anybody (which is useful), and criminals killing genuinely innocent people are 3 different matters that need 3 different sets of statistics to get a accurate picture of what is going on in society.

Obviously we have different views about the nature of civilization and will just have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough, but I was really hoping that you'd realize that it's infeasible to expect people to defend themselves with fisticuffs when their attacker is larger and/or stronger than them or they're accompanied by "friends," since I surmised that this whole disagreement stemmed from a belief that it is morally objectionable to use a weapon in defense of one's self against an unarmed attacker irregardless of the circumstances.

I also thought that society didn't tolerate violence, though apparently it's more "socially enlightened" to allow predators incapable of reason and compassion to do whatever they want to you and not fight back.

*Sigh* I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree.

There are self-defense laws in 50 states. Just as Minnesota already had them and felt they didnt need this ambigiously worded NRA backed bill.

Have a nice day.

Indeed and some are more well-grounded than others. I believe we're also in agreement that Minnesota's bill deserved to die on the Governor's desk, and that that we can further agree that we'd be better off if all lobbying organizations kept their money and their noses out of American politics entirely.



And good day to you, sir.

Hi John_Browning,

You have already "segregated", but not just this-or-that "categories":



1. "What that map also shows is that the shootings are concentrated in areas with well known drug and gang problems, at times of day when drug transactions and gang activity is at it's highest. "

Well, "make my day" laws ( ), apply to both the later "plaintiff" and "defendant" (with the "plaintiff" having the government's (king's) concerns also remaining after being "nixed" by "defendant"). The "drug and gang problems" are not the primary concern into the abstraction levels of the "make my day" laws.



2. "You typically don't find law abiding family men (regardless of income) with tax paying jobs and can pass a background check involved in that behavior, so there would have to be another root to the problem other than gun owners in general."

"Make my day" laws are eliminating the restrictions of "Castle Domain" laws. "Family men", "people with tax paying jobs", "people passing background checks", etc., are not different, nor distinguished in the abstractions, though with failure of the ERA, numerical and legal discrimination/prejudice against women remain.


3. "Law abiding citizens are in bed or getting ready for woek when 1/3 of shootings happen and another 22% while they are at work."

"Law abiding citizens", as adults at least, have no bed time laws, out-of-bed laws, nor very distinct "at work" (the expansions go beyond the already expanded Castle Doctrine). Your percentages add up to 55.3%, so where's the other 44.7%??? Or, are your criteria excluding ALL the participants in "those" other 44.7% events as necessarily not being what you take as "Law Abiding Citizens"? Did you have breakfast with Sheriff Joe this morning?


4. "They have some free time in the afternoon, but even without detailed records it can be inferred that the law abiding citizens aren't doing the shootings in the afternoon either since they still have obligations and there is nothing preventing the people that are doing the shooting from shooting in the afternoon as well!"

Other "obligations" preclude the need for "make my day" laws during the afternoon? But, the other "otherwise without sufficient evidence" law abiding citizens are the ones subject of "there is nothing preventing the people that are doing the shooting from shooting in the afternoon as well!"???


5. "Someone who spent their life in a all white town getting startled by a black person being the cause of a shooting is an isolated incident."

It is of particulars of a singularity, in that the event of fatality of the individual is necessarily an isolated incident for that individual. But, you don't want the "counting" of distinct events, since the word "isolated" provides faulty cover sans counts within any system of classifications!! ! "An all white town" and "black person", with the notion of "startled", really sounds like intense segregation being exploited and then some:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXlNsJDQG1U
[youtube]XXXhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXlNsJDQG1UXXX[/youtube]
XXXhttp://cliptank.com/funny-clips/dave ... r.htmlXXXX
XXXhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNu2j1EuWkXXX

6. "Someone getting shot over a drug deal gone bad is well documented."

And, "make my day" laws apply there too.

7. "Gang members getting singled out and shot is well documented."

And, "make my day" laws apply there too. You just analyzed this as an instance yourself. In Florida, no Block Captain to shoot a perhaps weapon carrying teen (indeed, a deadly knife), nor any trigger-happy teachers suspecting an illegal weapon, leads to an opportunity of one single event of the "law" to succeed, versus many earlier events with the same law not be actualized with earlier successful legal homicide stopping the later following of the same law. As in war, the dead don't write the history.

8. "Attempted robbers and rapists, with clear intentions, getting shot in self-defense is well documented."

Intentions are seldom clear, and "make my day" laws are strangely inversible, and biased against women.

9. "The overwhelming majority of both illegal and justified shootings alike fall into well-defined categories."

No they don't. They are forced into vague, over-lapping, and self-contradicting categories, greatly varying around the globe, from state-to-state, etc.

10. "Percentage wise, lawful gun owners misidentifying someone or getting trigger happy amounts to an isolated incident."

No, it's the most frequent incident. Are you claiming that the police isolating the scene of the incident for evidence purposes as nullifying the evidence collected???

http://www.lexisone.com/lx1/caselaw/fre ... 1loc=FCLOW

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-R-0320.htm

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=c ... urial%22+7

http://www.libertylawcenter.com/2011/11 ... -colorado/

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case? ... i=scholarr

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/0 ... 32756.html

http://lezgetreal.com/2012/03/possible- ... nt-page-1/

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUT ... INJ.html#1

I've got too much homework to go through all that tonight. If you can cut the links down to statistics from their sources and stories of people who have been ruled to have legal standing to challenge self defense laws, that would help me get to it tomorrow.

absofreakinlutely!

no, not all of us do... our voices are just drowned out by large and powerful gun lobbyists who continue to make a profit of the deaths and suffering of others. (which ironically are statistically the gun owner, or loved one of the gun owner)

Hi John_Browning,

The number cited with your edit (25,000,000) is an average over the median for the ten year span from groups claiming to support more laws protecting defensive gun usage & immunity from prosecution/civil liabilities. It's Roger Shattuck's "Irish Bull" logic again, in that "Everybody's doing it, but it's so rare as not to be worried about" (or, only 25 million to 60 million "isolated & singular" incidents over the decade).

This sounds like an explanation of why gun-possessing robbers use guns:
"The threat of deadly force provides an incentive for compliance and acts as it's own backup plan if the gun owner runs into life threatening resistance."

The newspaper comments are diametric to stances of calibre of Skiddles:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... fence.html

http://globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-mar ... ef-details

Meanwhile, desperate robbers are now more likely to use Game Theory for the conclusion to shoot first for incapacitation of victim's defense & till cooperation to means, then execution for no living witnesses and best type of opportunity to claim self defense with any failed clean escape. And now, Iago can even use his stooges multiple of times in open layers!! !

It makes me more concerned about being stereotyped with signs of Asperger's/neurological impairments in public, and while I track my walking on GPS & recorders/relayed cell phone packets (still no panoramic video), that doesn't stop a Dirty Harry from Making His Day over my body.

With all the public service pension plans going bankrupt, and police departments near closure from lack of funding, maybe the exponential growth of "make my day" opportunities is going to be the replacement of law & order with Alpha-Male feudal lords that make their own boundaries by the capacity of their clips.

Tadzio