Tell the truth about Islam!

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I do not see that happening Islam is the second largest religion in the world and it is apart of the persian and arab culture much like how christianity is apart of the culture of europe.

Yeah, but there's a difference between barely-existing Church of England-style nominal Christianity and the barbaric madness that holds sway in parts of Africa, most of the Middle East and part of the Indian subcontinent. Basically, in Muslim countries, the more secular and tolerant their brand of Islam is the better for everyone and, therefore, the more likelihood I will want to spend time there.

I'm not discounting that some Christians can be pretty obnoxious about their faith as well (though this is mostly in the U.S.).

Indeed also lets not forget the barbaric things the first christians started doing liking slaughtering pagans forcing them to convert and giving women no rights

and treating them like property which is why christianity did what Judisam did became less violent and barbaric Islam needs to get to that point where they can

learn to become less violent and change their image the way jews and christians did.

Exactly. The cultures of the countries where Islam is the main religion are often fine (and their food and churches are amazing) - it's the religion that is the problem.

Last edited by Tequila on 20 Mar 2012, 9:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I doubt it.

There is an assumption in the west that there is a natural progression that follows our own history.

Society led by religion.
Enlightenment.
Industrialisation.
Secular liberalism.

Unfortunately recent history doesn't really support this progression.

Russia went free market and got oligarchy.
China went free market and stayed one party authoritarian.
Iran overthrew a dictator and went for theocracy.
Saudi got rich and became a theocratic kingdom.
USA is becoming more theocratic every decade since the sixties.
Egypt just overthrew a dictator and voted for the Muslim Brotherhood and Sharia.

As the oil runs out and islamic populations explode I predict things are going to get a whole lot nastier.

there were some countries from the middle east represented. perhaps you need to brush up on your geography?


yes, absolutely. the document also shows how prevalent the violence is in other countries.


my points were supported by that document. you went on some tangents with most of your points, and they had absolutely nothing to do with what we were discussing.

here's more:
http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/ ... ort_BW.pdf

this report from the UN demonstrates that a woman in Australia was more than 35% more likely to have experienced physical violence in their lifetime than a woman in Egypt, and more women in New Zealand experience spousal abuse than Egypt.

women are more likely to be severely beaten by an intimate partner in Peru (a Christian country) than in Ethiopia (a Muslim nation), even though it is not sanctioned by the government.

24% of women in the United Kingdon have been sexually assaulted by their intimate partners. admittedly, that's less than half of the women in Ethipia, but still... if 1 in 4 women has been raped by a partner in the UK (and they would be mostly Christian women), then it seems like there are significant problems close to home. maybe work on fixing your internal problems before demonising other cultures or religions.

You really don't think the religious sanction makes it worse?

I guess I know it's worse from having grown up religious.

i'd say it's.... different. if religion or a government were sheltering (or somehow responsible for) violence and sexual assault against women, then we should logically see much lower rates of it outside those protected areas. but we don't. so there is something else distinct from the religion that is causing the problems to happen. that is scary to me, because it's so.... amorphous. don't know what to pin it on.

for some reason it's so newsworthy when we hear about atrocities that are happening elsewhere, yet some of the same atrocities happen in our own backyards with no comment.

I keep saying this. There's a massive difference between such things happening in a secular, liberal country where these disgusting acts are committed by individuals and where this mistreatment is reviled in the general culture (and where perpetrators are caught and punished) and one where it's an officially promoted part of the religious state culture.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Last edited by Tequila on 20 Mar 2012, 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You have a fair point, but have you considered how frequently domestic abuse is even going to be reported in a country like Pakistan? My bet is on less frequently than in the UK.

Well, if it's not a part of the Pakistani or Afghan official statistics, apparently it doesn't count.

She never said it doesn't count. I think she made an oversight.

You are very rhetorical.

I don't think so.

i don't think it is reported very often in any country. nonetheless the statistics are not usually compiled from police reports - they are stdies and surveys that speak to the women directly so that they can feel safer to speak up.

Careful now, that almost sounds like a personal attack and surely self righteous moderators should hold themselves to higher standard of behaviour than the racist trolls they moderate?

OK time for a geography lesson.

What is the middle east?

The middle east is a phrase invented by the British to refer to to what is now three countries, Iran, Iraq Afghanistan. Because they halfway between Britain and India.

Later on the phrase was extended to the area of land stretching from the Mediterranean in the west upto but not including Pakistan in the east and includes all of the Arabian peninsula.

What are these countries?

Iran
Iraq
Afghanistan
Israel
Jordan
Kuwait
Lebanon
Oman
Saudi Arabia
Syria
United Arab Emirates
Yemen
Bahrain
Qatar

So lets look back at our map shall we?

Of these countries, there is one, only one that isn't a 'no data' country and that is Afghanistan where apparently, according to this map, the femicide rate is less than one per hundred thousand women.

Which is a little odd considering a few pages later the very same document claims that femicide in Afghanistan is endemic and a massive problem.

So out of 14 countries in the middle east, 13 have no data and the remaining one has data that is contradicted by the evidence in the same document.

Ooooops.

Perhaps you need to brush up on your research skills or honesty?




That is a nice editing out of your original statement. I asked if you were using this document to justify your claim that


You are serious? You genuinely think that this document demonstrates that the rates of violence against women are the same in Canada as they are in Afghanistan? Even though the document choose to focus on countries like Libya and Afghanistan?

You really think that British and Canadian non-muslim women are being murdered by their own family because they were raped?



Could you please explain how me pointing out that your own evidentiary document source citing Afghanistan and Libya as particular problems for violence against women is at a tangent to either this thread or your derailment of it?

Thread starts about Islam.
You derail it, so it is a thread about violence against women in the rest of the world
I point out that you own source highlights islamic countries as a particular problem for violence against women
You ignore this completely claiming it is irrelevant.

Wow, your intellectual dishonesty is truly breathtaking Hyperlexian, I had no idea you were such a sore loser.



Oh great another 100 page women's rights document to wade through, so that you can cherry pick and ignore the rest.

Objection one - In a lot of these countries, governments lie. for example the president of Iran claims that there are zero homosexual men in Iran.

Objection two- Try scrolling to page 135 of your new evidence. Where it talks about Female Genital Mutilation. Oh dear, Egypt and Ethiopia not looking so women friendly now is it?

Objection three - Lets look at page 138. Oh dear oh dear. In Egypt 45% of women believe it is acceptable for a husband to beat his wife if she goes outside without his permission, 40% think a beating is acceptable for arguing with your husband and 35% thinking a beating is fine if they refuse to have sex with their husband. HINT do you think violence against women might be under reported if the women being beaten believe they deserve it?

What is the justification for FGM and wife beating in Egypt? Oh, that would be Islam wouldn't it...


Rock on you radical feminist Hyperlexian, why don't you support Egypt as a feminist utopia some more?






And yet more intellectual dishonesty.

Problem one, sexual assault is not rape.
Problem two, your figures are BS.

To quote you from another thread:



I would like to see your evidence that 1 in 4 British women are raped because I happen to know that you 'generated this figure out of thin air'.

so it's a personal attack for you to give me a "geography lesson" then? and no, i am not held to a higher standard then other people on the site. we have the same standards of behaviour.

yes there was one country from the middle east represented in the first set of statistics. not sure what your problem is with that. and i provided data from another source that had information about 2 other nations.

also, there are other ISLAMIC nations that are represented in both sets of data. we are talking about Islam, aren't we? or do you just want to include the middle east?

here is a summary of the informatioon i could find:

islamic countries do not have any more violence against women than some non-islamic countries.

it may be useful for you to do some of your own research instead of trying to just wear me down with snide remarks and fisking. unless you don't have anything of merit to contribute?

i don't recall saying that Egypt was a feminist utopia. oh by the way, considering that the women who stated they were beaten in Egypt were the same ones who said it was acceptable, it wouldn't have been underreported, would it? =and those were not government statistics.

also female genital mutilation is an african custom, not an islamic one. nice detour, but again - irrelevant. you need to do more research really.

you're right, rape is just included in sexual assault. but do you really think a wife would call it sexual assault if her hudband brushed against her boob?


no.... you found some extra data (most of it irrelevant, obviously), but you have not proven the sources to be invalid. i haven't seen you provide any evidence to refute my claims. go ahead and try.

lastly, the topic is about islam. the first minute of an inane video discussed violence against women that is sanctioned by islam. so i responded to that.