Tell the truth about Islam!

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maybe be careful about your assumptions because you slandered me in this thread based on it, and when you inspect the situation it made no logical sense for you to draw that conclusion in the first place. in this thread you took more than one opportunity to try to either undermine me or defame me in various ways.

keep in mind i am not the only moderator and just because i am very active as a moderator does not mean that i am making decisions in a vacuum. we are a team and the other moderators can see the communications i have sent. if you are warned or reminded of the rules on the forum, it isn't just hyperlexian charging in with an anti-Tequila agenda in order to make your life difficult.

and that concludes what i needed to say in the thread.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Stephen Weinberg.

I didn't say he was sane or justified. I didn't say his tactics weren't despicable. All I said is that they should not be surprising, and furthermore that the USA remains the undisputed world champion of bombing the crap out of civilians during acts of warfare.

I disagree.

Of course if we define "good people" as those who adhere to a moral code imposed by others, then we quickly moving into circular statement. If we define "good people" as people who refrain from committing evil acts, then we are moving into the oxymoronic.

I don't disagree that religion provides a convenient "moral" excuse for the inexcusable. But patriotism is no less a convenient cover for evil actions.

As is just about any other -ism. Atrocities have been committed in the name of fascism, socialism, communism, capitalism, and many other reasons.

AS we are telling the truth about Islam here is an interesting story.


This is the short version

Terrorism
Adultery
Head of State
Supporting AQ
Murder
Super Injunction

The longer version before Alex gets calls from lawyers is here:

http://cryptome.org/2012/01/mark-burby.htm

http://cryptome.org/2012/03/mark-burby2.htm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... tacks.html

Patriotism can be a godless religion, where nation becomes God; it is rooted in the tribal nature of human beings.

It was used, in part, as a convenient cover for the US to kill over 60,000 civilians in Iraq; we were attacked by another force, and the overall patriotism/spirit/belief in nation that ensued, was abused by those in power, to meet their personal agenda.

Immigrants seek a sense of nation after they have lost their own. When it cannot be found gangs can fulfill the inherent tribal instinct. Gangs, Tribes, Clans, Nations need no God to fulfill their agendas, only a common cause or enemy that binds people together.

The perceived enemies/victims are normally those whom are perceived as different than tribe, whatever the definition my be.

Examples are plentiful ranging from individuals whom are vulnerable to entire populations of people evidenced in the holocaust.

Before 9/11, I could never understand how the nation of Germany could have supported the holocaust effort, that was justified by perceived differences in another group of human beings.

But, to that point the largest sense of nation I had, was supporting a football team, another religious like source of fulfilling the tribal instinct.

The US had never been unified on a common enemy or cause my entire life. I missed World War II.

9/11 provided my first real sense of nation, and while I could see through the action on Iraq as some others could, the sense of patriotism closed down the process of logic for an entire nation, that would have otherwise made an unprovoked attack on another nation, impossible.

I have no idea if the people in the UK, have a sense of nation; it is lost again in the US, and it will likely take another significant attack on US soil, for it to rise again, however, as proven time and time again in the past, the consequences of patriotism are not always logical and can be deadly for those who fall victim to it.

However, one thing I know for sure, is that they have a sense of tribe/nation in middle eastern muslim nations. As they do in the Jewish nation of Israel. A common enemy has always been visible.

Their expression of religion is intertwined in that sense of tribe/nation, but as proven in other countries, a belief in a diety is not a requirement for a sense of tribe/nation or the resulting patriotism that can lead to consequences to others that are not always merited.

Islam doesn't make people join gangs or terrorist cells, nor is it a requirement in harming those that are different. It is part of the human/primate tribal instinct, that expresses itself in many different ways from an innocous attack on an opposing football team to overseas nuclear attacks that destroy entire cities.

The religion of Islam has been used as a tool to harm others, but it is only the tip of the iceberg that reflects a human nature that needs a tribe, and a common cause and/or enemy to focus on.



The video in the first post reflects the tribal instinct to focus on a common enemy, but if one has encountered Muslims real life, and felt no danger, as is often the case in the US, it's pretty hard to convince one that Islam itself is the the actual cause of so many problems in the world.


I encountered hundreds of Saudi nationals on a military base, under a federal contract for training. This was back in the days when Bin Laden was an ally of the US in fighting the Russians, and the only middle eastern enemy the US had known was Iran. If they hated Americans this group hid it well.

They were as peaceful and polite of a group of individuals that I had ever come across. What was the most striking element was the we of their cultural ways. Almost the polar opposite of the me culture of the US.

During the attack of 9/11, almost 10 years after I met these folks, I was shocked to find out the pilots where almost entirely of Saudi origin.

They were apparently part of a group that had succumbed to their own cultural version of patriotism mixed with religious beliefs. Not entirely different from the results in America that ensued, in part, from the a new common experience of National Patriotism after the attack.

There are negative and positive aspects of everyway of life; it's comforting to think that one has found the right one, to the exclusion of others. But, the way of life for one that follows Islam evidences itself in positive ways as well as negative ways, similiar to all other ways of life.

Pat Condell, like Tequila, made the amazing discovery some years ago that traditional Islam is not terribly liberal. The fact that Condell talks so much about it helps to make him a "right liberal" (sometimes known as a "conservative") as opposed to "left liberals" who generally prefer to shrug their shoulders. What Condell has not come round to realising in all these years is that on a worldwide scale it is his own liberalism that is abnormal.

Now when, if ever, is Condell going to tell the truth about race?

By the way, Tequila, did you hear that the jewish internet defence force have labelled Condell an anti-semite?

I guess his crawling "Let's Blame The jews" video hasn't redeemed him in the eyes of all of God's Chosen People.

Read some Rumi sometime. The scary suicide bomber is a bogeyman the MSM uses to frighten us into going along with military invasions in the middle east. It doesn't give us a full picture of the Islamic wold, and that guy on the video is only perpetuating a skewed stereotype. He comes off as very pretentious to me. Ultimately, people take from Islam what they want, just as people take from Christianity what they want. If they're an angry, judgmental person, passages of hellfire and brimstone will appeal to them. If they're a more relaxed, live and let live person, verses about love for one another will click with them. People interpret religious literature through their own personality, and its ultimately a reflection of them.

The same goes for atheism as well. Humanism will appeal more to an atheist who's not so much of a jerk, and eugenics and rationally based totalitarian philosophies will appeal more to an atheist that is a jerk.

Interesting.

Were you around for any of the McCarthy stuff or the start of Vietnam?

I tend to have an impression of US politics that the end of the Vietnam Adventure is really where the Rep/Dem parties staked out their turf and have never hugged since. I know the deal with god later on really sent the Rep's off into wilderness never to return, but that seems to me where the seeds were sown.

Was the anti communist era, not national enough for you?

From the outside looking at the post 9/11 psychology of the US it seemed very split personality.

One minute a furious rage ready to nuke any fecker back to the stone age the next all peace and love, muslims are nice, Islam is peace, KILL KILL KILL, la la la, have you met my Saudi friend?

Must have been easy in WWII to be able to point to a map and say 'this who the evil people are, hate them!'.



No nation in Europe has any sense of nation any more. In all seriousness if a US democrat showed up here running for office showing the same level of national patriotism he would be run out of town for being fascist.

In the US your national story is one of freedom and nation building, it's constructive and wholesome.

In Europe we don't have that luxury, our histories are written in each other's blood back into the mist of time. Prior to the 20th century if you look at the detailed histories of Europe you will run out of records before you find a single year where some bunch of Europeans were not invading and killing another bunch of Europeans.

The second European countries press the national patriotism button, someone will go and invade Poland and things get messy.



The bible has just as much, if not more nasty stuff in it than the Koran and while the religious right in the US do a fine job of indoctrinating obedient closed minded zealots, they lack the hatred, willingness to die and focus from near birth that the Wahabbis have so successfully unleashed on the world.



You could have said the same thing about the British and their stiff upper lip, obsession with gardening charm in times gone by. It didn't mean that come WWI hundreds of thousands of young men weren't eager to throw their lives away climbing over the trenches. Can you imagine the mindset it takes to suffer 60,000 casualties in a single day and carry on a war for years?

You could say the same about the Japanese with their similar obsessions with politeness, formality and tea but come WWII they were as fanatical as it can get.

The problem with Islamic extremism is that it was really stoked up again by Pakistan asking Saudi to provide it with madrassas to train fanatics to fight India. When the USSR entered Afghanistan the madrassas were used to train fanatics to fight the evil empire, only now with super duper CIA training upgrades. When the USSR left these guys got completely abandoned. Back in Saudi the royal family was facing a bit of a rebellion from the clerics because of their liberal behaviour so the clerics got the schools to placate them and the royal family went conservative.

Fast forward a few years and you have battle hardened fanatics with CIA upgrades wondering around very pissed off with a score to settle and a s**t load of pampered fanatics coming out of Saudi schools.

Bang, 9/11.

Oddly enough the USSR warned the US not to leave these guys running around the place when they withdrew from Afghanistan, but the advice was ignored. Doh!

Chuck the internet into this equation and suddenly any pissed off wannabe can become a jihadi warrior and any old warlord has a blueprint for a standard issue jihadi army willing to do his bidding, motivational videos of americans blowing up comes free.

'Winning the war' against Islamic extremism is like trying to stop people downloading the latest trendy music album...

Now as we limp away from Afghanistan, the Taliban will claim that not only did it defeat and destroy the USSR it also defeated and bankrupted the USA. Give it a decade and 9/11 round two is going to happen.

I don't like to get into arguments about 911 anymore. I think the official story has major holes in it. Because nano-thermite was found in the rubble, because building 7 collapsed the way it did (no mention in the 911 Commission Report), and because an elevator shaft update took place weeks before the attack, I don't really listen to anything the media or the government tells me to believe on the subject or who were supposed to invade or attack.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d5iIoCiI8g[/youtube]

This is an experiment by an actual engineer, not set designers that like to play scientist.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frIpyTBAV_Y[/youtube]

Here's some short videos I suggest watching. I'm not going to get in any arguments about it, because I find it a waste of time and think were all f****d anyway and should just enjoy freedom while we have it. They're disappearing fast, and people, as a generality, are too easy to manipulate. That's why serfdom existed as it did for thousands of years, and that's why peasants fought every crusade their pope, kings, or sultan told them to fight.

Who actually thinks Islam is a liberal religion? Honestly? Or is it simply a matter of convenience for you to lump all of those you dislike together?

The "nasty stuff" has to do with the establishment of a Hebrew theocracy dedicated to the exclusive worship of Yahweh and invites surrounding nations to join in. It's a poor rationale for Christians to engage in any "holy war." What's important to point out is that Yahweh desired the temple project to be attained during peacetime. The name for "Solomon" sounds much like the word for "peace." The books of the kings and the major prophets detail the failure of the Israelites to maintain that theocracy, and it has yet to be revived.

Muslims seem almost gifted at setting up theocracies, and anything in the Hebrew Bible along with what Christians have erroneously done (or at least people claiming to be Christians) is eclipsed by what certain Muslims and Muslim countries would like to do given the right opportunity. Iran desiring to wipe Israel off the map should provide a good clue.

Just a question codarac, but do you get all your antisemitism from conspiracy theories, or have any real life Jews ever done you wrong?

That seems like an enemy of my enemy is my friend argument. It doesn't hold much water and Pat is allowed to call them as he sees them, one of the perks of living in a 'free' society.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the people of Israel, given the events of WWII, the suicide bombings and staggering number of missiles pointed at them, but I have a great deal of difficulty in seeing the establishment of the state of Israel, when viewed through a 21st century moral lens as anything other than an act of ethnic cleansing.

Here we go:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIesXORjBps[/youtube]