Jesus, Christians, and the world
11 Apr 2012, 9:01 pm
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhV4-1nZs_A[/youtube]
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
11 Apr 2012, 9:18 pm
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
It's interesting what most people thought this thread was saying: that Jesus wants us to hate.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The world didn't hate Jesus. When he was alive (assuming that he was a real person), the vast majority of the world was entirely unaware of his existence. The only people who hated him were the religious leaders of his country, who compelled the Roman authorities to arrest and execute him. According to the gospel stories anyway.
Those weren't the only people who hated him. And He was speaking of worldly people, who have the spirit of the world, and these people are spiritually the same everywhere on the planet.
This is an extreme black-and-white and us-versus-them world view. People either have the spirit of your brand of religion, or they have the spirit of the world, which is evil, sinful and immoral and deserves no consideration. The latter are an extremely broad group that probably includes feminists, atheists, liberals, all the other world religions, and ultimately anyone who might disagree with your personal opinion.
Well, when it comes right down to it, people are divided into two groups. Jesus did say: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” (Matt 12:30)
And...
Quote:
From Matt 10:
32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.
33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn
‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37 Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”
32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.
33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn
‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37 Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”
My point is to analyze, as correctly as I can, what Jesus meant, and that these are verses that often get pushed by the wayside and avoided, when, really, all those who believe Jesus is God, as I do, need to pay close attention to everything He said, not just the pleasant things. I also think I make a point that even an atheist or agnostic would agree with: those who follow Jesus should be sure who Jesus is in all His doctrines. Right? Some people worship a different Jesus -- one remanufactured to be different than the one in the Bible.
I will deal with the part of your post I did not quote by simply saying that you are throwing a lot of unfounded assumptions my way in trying to define who I am, and I've met the kind of people you describe, and I disagree with them myself, and think they are wrong-headed. I would rather you ask information about me than try to tell me who I am, when we know virtually nothing about one another. Especially if we are going to have a continuing dialogue.
_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
11 Apr 2012, 9:25 pm
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
The world is actually a beautiful place, its a shame you guys think it's evil.....I mean I certainly don't like society but I don't see what is so evil about things like nature.
Who said anything about nature? This is about humanity's attitudes and actions.
Well all those quotes referred to how evil the world is, I thought that meant the world in general. That said though wouldn't that be a reason to try and improve humanity rather than root for the destruction of it. Or is Christianity really about hate and superiority after all.
There is no rooting for its destruction. The point is it's destroying itself with its own evil.
The world isn't evil.......end of story.
Would you like the numbers of killings in the 20th century alone, the bloodiest in history by far? That came from how good-natured the world is, right?
_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
11 Apr 2012, 9:27 pm
Ragtime wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
It's interesting what most people thought this thread was saying: that Jesus wants us to hate.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The world didn't hate Jesus. When he was alive (assuming that he was a real person), the vast majority of the world was entirely unaware of his existence. The only people who hated him were the religious leaders of his country, who compelled the Roman authorities to arrest and execute him. According to the gospel stories anyway.
Those weren't the only people who hated him. And He was speaking of worldly people, who have the spirit of the world, and these people are spiritually the same everywhere on the planet.
This is an extreme black-and-white and us-versus-them world view. People either have the spirit of your brand of religion, or they have the spirit of the world, which is evil, sinful and immoral and deserves no consideration. The latter are an extremely broad group that probably includes feminists, atheists, liberals, all the other world religions, and ultimately anyone who might disagree with your personal opinion.
Well, when it comes right down to it, people are divided into two groups. Jesus did say: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” (Matt 12:30)
And...
Quote:
From Matt 10:
32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.
33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn
‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37 Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”
32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.
33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn
‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37 Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”
My point is to analyze, as correctly as I can, what Jesus meant, and that these are verses that often get pushed by the wayside and avoided, when, really, all those who believe Jesus is God, as I do, need to pay close attention to everything He said, not just the pleasant things. I also think I make a point that even an atheist or agnostic would agree with: those who follow Jesus should be sure who Jesus is in all His doctrines. Right? Some people worship a different Jesus -- one remanufactured to be different than the one in the Bible.
I will deal with the part of your post I did not quote by simply saying that you are throwing a lot of unfounded assumptions my way in trying to define who I am, and I've met the kind of people you describe, and I disagree with them myself, and think they are wrong-headed. I would rather you ask information about me than try to tell me who I am, when we know virtually nothing about one another. Especially if we are going to have a continuing dialogue.
Quoting scriptures that are unfamiliar to many and snipping them out of the context of the overall theme does not further any cause, expect to turn away those who give it a passing glance.
Speak boldly of your similarities and quietly of your differences.
Prickly, spikey things aren't often embraced.
Last edited by shrox on 11 Apr 2012, 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
11 Apr 2012, 9:28 pm
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
It's interesting what most people thought this thread was saying: that Jesus wants us to hate.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The world didn't hate Jesus. When he was alive (assuming that he was a real person), the vast majority of the world was entirely unaware of his existence. The only people who hated him were the religious leaders of his country, who compelled the Roman authorities to arrest and execute him. According to the gospel stories anyway.
Those weren't the only people who hated him. And He was speaking of worldly people, who have the spirit of the world, and these people are spiritually the same everywhere on the planet.
What is so wrong with the world...or being worldly, what the hell does that even mean.
In short, it means not paying any attention to the God who created and loves you.
_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
11 Apr 2012, 10:26 pm
Ragtime wrote:
Well, when it comes right down to it, people are divided into two groups. Jesus did say: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” (Matt 12:30)
If you're going to declare yourself in the right just because you believe correctly, perhaps you should reconsider the parable of the sheep and the goats (especially people who were surprised where they ended up), and nearly everything Jesus ever said to or about the Pharisees (who were rather theologically correct and followed their rules quite well).
_________________
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton
11 Apr 2012, 10:50 pm
Ragtime wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
It's interesting what most people thought this thread was saying: that Jesus wants us to hate.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The world didn't hate Jesus. When he was alive (assuming that he was a real person), the vast majority of the world was entirely unaware of his existence. The only people who hated him were the religious leaders of his country, who compelled the Roman authorities to arrest and execute him. According to the gospel stories anyway.
Those weren't the only people who hated him. And He was speaking of worldly people, who have the spirit of the world, and these people are spiritually the same everywhere on the planet.
What is so wrong with the world...or being worldly, what the hell does that even mean.
In short, it means not paying any attention to the God who created and loves you.
Right. The God who loves me so much that failure to worship him brings about an eternal punishment (death or hell, pick your poison) for a finite transgression. The God who loved his creation so much that he spent most of the Old Testament alternately scaring the pants off of his chosen people and selling them into slavery. The God who is so just that he sends an army of she-bears to devour children for mocking his prophet. The God that hardened the Pharoh's heart against Moses so he could drag out the plagues just a little bit longer - and for what, to prove a point? The God who tormented Job just to prove a point.
The one that fails to use his omnipotence to prevent evil - who, in fact, invented suffering personally as an infinite punishment for Adam and Eve's finite transgression. Who cursed Cain's entire line for the sins of its founder. Who hounded the sons of David for generations until the birth of Christ. Who condemns those who have never heard of him - who have never even had a chance to embrace the Word - to Hell.
Yeah. That God. See, this is why I'm an atheist - because if I found faith, I'd be forced to admit that God is a sadistic, immature, self-righteous jerk with a serious torture fetish and all the moral authority of a three-year-old. The fact that the intolerance and hostility preached in large parts of the New Testament are a step up for Him does not service Him well.
Call me when your God grows up.
_________________
Et in Arcadia ego. - "Even in Arcadia, there am I."
Sweetleaf
Veteran
Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,477
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
11 Apr 2012, 10:52 pm
Ragtime wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
The world is actually a beautiful place, its a shame you guys think it's evil.....I mean I certainly don't like society but I don't see what is so evil about things like nature.
Who said anything about nature? This is about humanity's attitudes and actions.
Well all those quotes referred to how evil the world is, I thought that meant the world in general. That said though wouldn't that be a reason to try and improve humanity rather than root for the destruction of it. Or is Christianity really about hate and superiority after all.
There is no rooting for its destruction. The point is it's destroying itself with its own evil.
The world isn't evil.......end of story.
Would you like the numbers of killings in the 20th century alone, the bloodiest in history by far? That came from how good-natured the world is, right?
And that proves that the entire world is evil? Also what about all the killings christians throughout history have participated in, Its not as though the history of your religion isn't filled with violence.
_________________
We won't go back.
Sweetleaf
Veteran
Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,477
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
11 Apr 2012, 10:55 pm
Ragtime wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
It's interesting what most people thought this thread was saying: that Jesus wants us to hate.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The world didn't hate Jesus. When he was alive (assuming that he was a real person), the vast majority of the world was entirely unaware of his existence. The only people who hated him were the religious leaders of his country, who compelled the Roman authorities to arrest and execute him. According to the gospel stories anyway.
Those weren't the only people who hated him. And He was speaking of worldly people, who have the spirit of the world, and these people are spiritually the same everywhere on the planet.
What is so wrong with the world...or being worldly, what the hell does that even mean.
In short, it means not paying any attention to the God who created and loves you.
I was created because my parents decided to have sex, that's about it...I see no reason I should view the entire world as evil just because a book says I should. Besides I would rather burn in hell then serve some selfish god who will doom you to torment for all eternity if you don't worship him...but somehow supposedly loves me. Its just not a healthy belief for me.
_________________
We won't go back.
11 Apr 2012, 11:07 pm
shrox wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
It's interesting what most people thought this thread was saying: that Jesus wants us to hate.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The world didn't hate Jesus. When he was alive (assuming that he was a real person), the vast majority of the world was entirely unaware of his existence. The only people who hated him were the religious leaders of his country, who compelled the Roman authorities to arrest and execute him. According to the gospel stories anyway.
Those weren't the only people who hated him. And He was speaking of worldly people, who have the spirit of the world, and these people are spiritually the same everywhere on the planet.
This is an extreme black-and-white and us-versus-them world view. People either have the spirit of your brand of religion, or they have the spirit of the world, which is evil, sinful and immoral and deserves no consideration. The latter are an extremely broad group that probably includes feminists, atheists, liberals, all the other world religions, and ultimately anyone who might disagree with your personal opinion.
Well, when it comes right down to it, people are divided into two groups. Jesus did say: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” (Matt 12:30)
And...
Quote:
From Matt 10:
32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.
33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn
‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37 Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”
32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.
33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn
‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37 Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”
My point is to analyze, as correctly as I can, what Jesus meant, and that these are verses that often get pushed by the wayside and avoided, when, really, all those who believe Jesus is God, as I do, need to pay close attention to everything He said, not just the pleasant things. I also think I make a point that even an atheist or agnostic would agree with: those who follow Jesus should be sure who Jesus is in all His doctrines. Right? Some people worship a different Jesus -- one remanufactured to be different than the one in the Bible.
I will deal with the part of your post I did not quote by simply saying that you are throwing a lot of unfounded assumptions my way in trying to define who I am, and I've met the kind of people you describe, and I disagree with them myself, and think they are wrong-headed. I would rather you ask information about me than try to tell me who I am, when we know virtually nothing about one another. Especially if we are going to have a continuing dialogue.
Quoting scriptures that are unfamiliar to many and snipping them out of the context of the overall theme does not further any cause, expect to turn away those who give it a passing glance.
Speak boldly of your similarities and quietly of your differences.
Prickly, spikey things aren't often embraced.
These are extremely important verses, in that they relate to eternal destiny. I took great effort to clearly explain what they mean as I understand them, and I continue to attempt further explanation in my follow-up posts, as do others. I am not ashamed of anything about Jesus Christ, including everything He said. He said the harsh-sounding things He said for a loving reason. And I don't believe in re-phrasing Jesus in order to try to achieve some superior, gentler style. He was gentle -- but those are the verses most people know. This thread is about His other sayings -- doctrines that are absolutely vital to life after death.
_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
11 Apr 2012, 11:20 pm
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
The world is actually a beautiful place, its a shame you guys think it's evil.....I mean I certainly don't like society but I don't see what is so evil about things like nature.
Who said anything about nature? This is about humanity's attitudes and actions.
Well all those quotes referred to how evil the world is, I thought that meant the world in general. That said though wouldn't that be a reason to try and improve humanity rather than root for the destruction of it. Or is Christianity really about hate and superiority after all.
There is no rooting for its destruction. The point is it's destroying itself with its own evil.
The world isn't evil.......end of story.
Would you like the numbers of killings in the 20th century alone, the bloodiest in history by far? That came from how good-natured the world is, right?
And that proves that the entire world is evil? Also what about all the killings christians throughout history have participated in, Its not as though the history of your religion isn't filled with violence.
You are right about that. It's a terrible thing that people claiming to be Christian perpetrated such horrible violence and murder at certain periods in history. But the New Testament they claimed to follow absolutely denied any such permission, and even told them to treat people exactly the opposite: with kindness. In fact, here is what they were supposed to be following: "...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23) And Jesus said: "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." (Jn 13:35) So, clearly, those "Christians" weren't Christians. It's a terrible thing, I absolutely agree.
_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
12 Apr 2012, 1:05 am
Planet Ragtime, where Christians are Jews, Christians aren't Christians and Feminists roam the streets with clubs!! !
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
12 Apr 2012, 3:20 am
shrox wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
What is so wrong with the world...or being worldly, what the hell does that even mean.
Being worldly literally means being attached to the things of the world. For modern times it's fast food, TV, trendy clothes and cars, consumerism in general, and owning things we are pained to get rid off. Think back to when Native American tribes dwelled in North America. Although they lived lives directly dependent upon the fruits of the Earth, they were not very worldly, and some were even tricked into trading large tracts of land for beads and trinkets.
Worldly can also be like modern day corporations, were destroying peoples lives is "nothing personal, just business".
I am against all those things, and I am an atheist. I am not about to join the Amish, however. Jim Jones' followers also were reacting to modernity with a religious twist by following him to Guyana. I grew up during the seventies, when some tried joining communes as a secular alternative. I never did that either. Finding a balance is usually the best choice.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,798
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
12 Apr 2012, 3:35 am
The world mentioned by Christ isn't literally the planet, but the human society, with all its cruelty, intolerance, and selfishness. Christ was telling his followers not to become part of that again.
Unfortunately, many Christian denominations today have tied themselves to worldly politics, and have taken up very UN-Christlike causes, such as supporting redistribution of wealth to the upper class, robbing the poor and down and out of social services they rely on, and supporting unjustifiable wars abroad, and even denying rights to unpopular segments of our society. Yes, I'm talking about evangelicals, and traditionalist Catholics (like "Frothy" Santorum), who have become the very part of the world Christ had warned his disciples about.
Unfortunately, right wing elements of my own Lutheran Church Missouri Synod can be added to that list, as they've in recent years have been crawling out of the woodwork, and it's genuinely PISSING ME OFF!! !! !! !!
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
12 Apr 2012, 7:10 am
Vigilans wrote:
Planet Ragtime, where Christians are Jews, Christians aren't Christians and Feminists roam the streets with clubs!! !
I guess that's humorous, because it certainly isn't true.
_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
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