Jesus, Christians, and the world

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Sounds like the antichrist taking his seat in the temple Bill. 2 Thess. 2:4

I could answer this, but frankly it's true that my life sucks too a lot of the time, so, if we're going to judge God by how good our lives are, then we're being self-oriented, rather than letting God be God and ourselves be His creatures (in other words, the servants that we are by virtue of being His creations). I mean, this isn't going to give you any comfort, but God isn't here to be our, as my friend says, "cosmic bellhop", waiting on us hand and foot. The crap He lets us go through are tests, and a mature attitude will realize that trials and tribulations are not God's hatred for us, but rather a maturing and purification process. The apostle Paul had a really rough life, yet praised God during it. You can either think he was being insane for doing that, or that he simply saw that "being worthy to suffer for Christ", as he put it, was an honor. This probably totally turns you off all the more, but I'm not going to sugarcoat it. You can find a church that sugarcoats things and makes you feel good with pleasant deceit -- try the Unitarians -- but personally I find the truth more liberating in the long term, even if often more painful to focus on in the short term. That's pretty much all I can say. If it's all about what God can do for you, you're missing the big picture. If, as you said, you'd prefer living in Hell, I hope you know what you're getting into.

As Christ said, that is the part that really offends the world. Christ tells us to be separate. Another word for that in the Bible is "holy". This kind of separatist attitude really irks the world about Christians -- but you're right, it is exactly what we're called to be: separate. "In the world, but not of the world." Hence, Jesus predicted we'd be hated by the world. We get, "What, you guys think you're better than us? Who are you, anyway??" and other reactions like that. It's all just part of the pain of being called to be good in an evil place -- a place where not fitting in is considered the ultimate sin.

It is ironic that these Christians want to continue to publicly utter their nonsense, and then think of anyone criticizing them as persecutors.

That kind of post is useless. When Christians utter nonsense, they are not being Christian, period. I hear a lot of nonsense from the Christian Church at large, but if I'm to be honest, I hear greater degrees of nonsense from atheists.

Then Christians don't exist because Christianity is nonsense.

Well, at least you're backing up your claim.

Simply being contrarian, without explanation, doesn't add anything that people will want to read.

If anyone here thinks Jesus is unloving, remember that He healed the sick, the lame, the blind, and the deaf -- and even raised Lazarus from the dead. There is no love without truth, so He was both loving and bluntly truthful. I think I'd listen to a blunt man, if he had just restored the eyesight which I never had since I was born! That would make me want to pay attention to what he has to say.

According to my philosophy I chose these experiences before I was born because there is something I am supposed to learn from human existence and something I'm supposed to do(don't know quite what it is yet, I have to wait till the time is right and I'll know) hmm even if it is just pure insanity with no truth to it at least it gives me a reason to keep living for a while because I am curious to find out. Also if it turns out your religion is correct, then yes I'd rather burn in hell with the devil then serve god in heaven.

But yes my life basically went in this order christian, christian curious about paganism, atheist, agnostic, christian, agnostic, satanist, agnostic/not caring about spirituality in any way and now the weird insane belief that I probably should not talk to psychologists about

Given the time we both spent on PPR, it should be clear what my objection to theism from my posts. I do not think 'god' refer to anything (that is legiable and non-trivial), I do not believe in 'moral truths' and I do not regard the Christian bible as any different from any holy book. I had very long debates with other Christians where I explained my points. Use the search function if you want to read (which I doubt).

Really, do you expect any bible quotation to hold any water when arguing with anyone who dismisses your magic book?

Corrected for you. And how many 'the sick, the lame, the blind, and the deaf' modern medicine saved?

All the things you mention are human inventions, and some of those even contribute to the negative state of the world.......what I am saying is the world in itself is not a bad place, there is nothing wrong with things that grow or live on this planet in general. Society really does suck but that's not the whole world......also I don't see how dismissing the entire world as evil and only concerning yourself with what might happen after you die rather than what is actually going on in the moment is a very good solution for anything.

Yeah excuses, excuses........why when I bring this up can't anyone who's a christian just acknowledge, yes there are some pretty dark things in the past of their religion instead of trying to convince me that somehow the Christians who did that where all fake christains. I imagine if I went back in time and asked them about it they'd have a different view on how real of Christians they where.

Absolutely sweetleaf. Faith should be about life here and now. Just so you know, I do not see so many good and decent people condemned to Hell, because they don't believe. I do believe that what we are here and now makes for what we will be after death. It may seem to be a problem that The Bible seems to make very little detailed mention of life after death, and there are considerable disagreements about what will happen. I do not think that was a careless ommission. We would spend all of our time thinking about it to no useful purpose. I think it is somewhat beyond our understanding.

It is true Christ was blunt when it comes to condemning sin and hypocrisy - but most of his criticism was leveled at the Pharisees, who, with all their legalism and their readiness to level judgement, were the religious right of his day. The people who Jesus courted with forgiveness the most were the people who the religious right today wouldn't even allow to step into their churches today.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I'm with Ragtime on this one. How exactly do you define "Christian"? My definition is simply "follower of Jesus Christ." I don't care how much someone claims to be a disciple. If their actions don't reflect the kind of change in a person's life that one would expect by someone actually placing his faith in the atoning work of Christ, then I have difficulty accepting that any such person is a brother or sister in Christ and I would heavily question whether that person is really saved. Merely claiming to be a Christian isn't enough. It seems to me that the definition of "Christian" is "people who claim to be followers of Christ, go to church, and do evil things contrary to Jesus' teachings." And that's just not Biblical.

Are there dark things in our past? Sure. I'll acknowledge that. And that some calling themselves Christians in the past did horrible things does not mean that some of those same people were NOT saved, either. It just means that the evidence that they were is lacking. Whether one's salvation is actually worked out lies between the individual and God. There have always been believers who did evil things because they didn't yet fully understand what being saved means. Christianity has never been about how much good or evil you do. It's about whether you trust that God through Jesus is powerful enough to atone for the sins of all humanity. Those who accept that are saved, and even the most hopeless among humanity--even those among us we consider evil beyond redemption--can still be saved through God's grace. If it is wrong for Christians through lack of spiritual maturity to judge others, it is just as wrong for others to judge us.