Jesus, Christians, and the world
12 Apr 2012, 2:44 pm
Sweetleaf wrote:
You do realize all christianity came from the same thing right?
How is that relevant? They came from the same thing, and, over the centuries, most radically changed.
Sweetleaf wrote:
Of course different branches of it will operate differently, but don't forget most forms of chrisitianity did branch off from catholocism so to call the original forms of the religion false and the new forms true is kinda confusing to me.
But Catholicism is not the original form. Messanic Judaism is the original form, as practiced by Jesus' disciples. You can't get any more originally Christian than Jesus' own words, and many of those are recorded in the four Gospel books of the Bible.
Sweetleaf wrote:
Either way I would not be part of any branches of it regardless of how un-restrictive they are as its simply not what I believe in.
And that is the bottom line. The "either way." I just wanted to make sure about that. It's not a matter of confusion -- you just don't believe it. I understand.
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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
Sweetleaf
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12 Apr 2012, 2:51 pm
Ragtime wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
You do realize all christianity came from the same thing right?
How is that relevant? They came from the same thing, and, over the centuries, most radically changed.
Its still the same religion, some branches have grown to be less restrictive and more open about things but its still the same religion.
Sweetleaf wrote:
Of course different branches of it will operate differently, but don't forget most forms of chrisitianity did branch off from catholocism so to call the original forms of the religion false and the new forms true is kinda confusing to me.
But Catholicism is not the original form. Messanic Judaism is the original form, as practiced by Jesus' disciples. You can't get any more originally Christian than Jesus' own words, and many of those are recorded in the four Gospel books of the Bible.
Christianity did not exist until Jesus was dead and the romans decided to assemble the bible and create the Roman Catholic church...in what looks like an attempt for having more power or something. I don't think Judaism and christianity are quite the same thing. Also there is no proof anything written in the bible was actually said by Jesus...its proof someone wrote that he said that.
Sweetleaf wrote:
Either way I would not be part of any branches of it regardless of how un-restrictive they are as its simply not what I believe in.
And that is the bottom line. The "either way." I just wanted to make sure about that. It's not a matter of confusion -- you just don't believe it. I understand.
Yeah pretty much, I've got other beliefs about things.
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Kraichgauer
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12 Apr 2012, 5:45 pm
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As a Lutheran, I don't believe in irresistible grace, or if you will, "once saved, always saved." Judas, after all, had fallen from grace.
How was he under grace to begin with? He was stealing from Jesus' disciples money bag regularly. There is no evidence to suggest he was ever sincere.
Kraichgauer wrote:
Those Christians who had committed Un-Christian acts had put too much trust in their hold onto grace, and thus had in reality fallen away.
I do believe in "back-sliding", where you can fall away from practicing and believing Christianity, without losing your eternal salvation. I also believe in false conversion, where the person was never sincere in accepting Jesus. Jesus said He'll say to those who tell Him in the afterlife "I performed miracles, I cast out demons in your name, and did all these wonderful works", He'll say to them "I never knew you." (Never once.)
Kraichgauer wrote:
Also, we're not big on the notion that we can "accept" Christ - that is, take an active part in our own conversion. Rather, we believe that our salvation is entirely in God's able hands, not our own - even if it may seem that way if conversion comes in later life.
Well, I do believe that the Holy Spirit leads a person to salvation, but that it is still a conscious and deliberate decision of acceptance on the part of the person. I know we've talked long about this before.
I'm sorry, but that's where you and I part ways. Without God's grace, earned for us by Christ, we are in a natural state of rebellion against God. And while predestination is today an unpopular subject, Paul tells us we were foreknown and predestined by God, leading us to believe our salvation is entirely in God's able hands.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
12 Apr 2012, 7:05 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
I'm sorry, but that's where you and I part ways. Without God's grace, earned for us by Christ, we are in a natural state of rebellion against God. And while predestination is today an unpopular subject, Paul tells us we were foreknown and predestined by God, leading us to believe our salvation is entirely in God's able hands.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
I would not take the word of that gonnif Paul under any circumstances. He was a sly dishonest man. He was out to wreck the nascent Christ following movement and he did. He replaced Christianity with Paulianity.
ruveyn
Joker
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12 Apr 2012, 7:24 pm
Ragtime pleas stop making threads like this you don't speak for everyone that follows the Christian faith I follow the gothic christianity belief trust me while I appuald you for having passion about your faith I wish you would have more threads to do with other things and not just religious topics.
12 Apr 2012, 8:08 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As a Lutheran, I don't believe in irresistible grace, or if you will, "once saved, always saved." Judas, after all, had fallen from grace.
How was he under grace to begin with? He was stealing from Jesus' disciples money bag regularly. There is no evidence to suggest he was ever sincere.
Kraichgauer wrote:
Those Christians who had committed Un-Christian acts had put too much trust in their hold onto grace, and thus had in reality fallen away.
I do believe in "back-sliding", where you can fall away from practicing and believing Christianity, without losing your eternal salvation. I also believe in false conversion, where the person was never sincere in accepting Jesus. Jesus said He'll say to those who tell Him in the afterlife "I performed miracles, I cast out demons in your name, and did all these wonderful works", He'll say to them "I never knew you." (Never once.)
Kraichgauer wrote:
Also, we're not big on the notion that we can "accept" Christ - that is, take an active part in our own conversion. Rather, we believe that our salvation is entirely in God's able hands, not our own - even if it may seem that way if conversion comes in later life.
Well, I do believe that the Holy Spirit leads a person to salvation, but that it is still a conscious and deliberate decision of acceptance on the part of the person. I know we've talked long about this before.
I'm sorry, but that's where you and I part ways. Without God's grace, earned for us by Christ, we are in a natural state of rebellion against God. And while predestination is today an unpopular subject, Paul tells us we were foreknown and predestined by God, leading us to believe our salvation is entirely in God's able hands.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Some people were predestined for salvation, yes. But nowhere does it say people were predestined for damnation. So choice can be involved. Of course God would know the future, but God knowing the future doesn't stop future people from thinking and making decisions, it just means He's know them all ahead of time.
Acceptance of salvation involves the will, it's not God alone. He doesn't force us to convert. Otherwise, no Gospel would have been needed to be preached, no sermon on Mars hill by Paul -- in fact, all sermons would be pointless, because God could lead the predestined people to salvation like cosmically-controlled zombies and they would automatically believe.
To be honest, what importance would the exact identity of the salvation mechanism have in the real world? Also, what do you do with verses like, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance"? (2 Pet 3:9)
If He could predestinate everyone to come to Him regardless of their will, and it says He does want anyone to go to Hell, then why didn't He predestinate everyone to go to Heaven? As it is, MOST people will go to Hell: Jesus said, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it" (Matt 7:13-14).
_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
12 Apr 2012, 8:13 pm
Joker wrote:
Ragtime pleas stop making threads like this you don't speak for everyone that follows the Christian faith I follow the gothic christianity belief trust me while I appuald you for having passion about your faith I wish you would have more threads to do with other things and not just religious topics.
All of us can freely contribute, and I welcome the few Christians there are on WP to help me out. If we disagree, that isn't a problem, because it affords us something to discuss.
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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
Joker
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12 Apr 2012, 8:17 pm
Ragtime wrote:
Joker wrote:
Ragtime pleas stop making threads like this you don't speak for everyone that follows the Christian faith I follow the gothic christianity belief trust me while I appuald you for having passion about your faith I wish you would have more threads to do with other things and not just religious topics.
All of us can freely contribute, and I welcome the few Christians there are on WP to help me out. If we disagree, that isn't a problem, because it affords us something to discuss.
Yes I understand that but you do know we are a small minority on WP?
12 Apr 2012, 8:38 pm
Joker wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Joker wrote:
Ragtime pleas stop making threads like this you don't speak for everyone that follows the Christian faith I follow the gothic christianity belief trust me while I appuald you for having passion about your faith I wish you would have more threads to do with other things and not just religious topics.
All of us can freely contribute, and I welcome the few Christians there are on WP to help me out. If we disagree, that isn't a problem, because it affords us something to discuss.
Yes I understand that but you do know we are a small minority on WP?
I know. Imagine how tough it is all by myself! I used to do that long ago on here. Still will if other Christians don't want to help.
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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
Kraichgauer
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12 Apr 2012, 10:09 pm
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As a Lutheran, I don't believe in irresistible grace, or if you will, "once saved, always saved." Judas, after all, had fallen from grace.
How was he under grace to begin with? He was stealing from Jesus' disciples money bag regularly. There is no evidence to suggest he was ever sincere.
Kraichgauer wrote:
Those Christians who had committed Un-Christian acts had put too much trust in their hold onto grace, and thus had in reality fallen away.
I do believe in "back-sliding", where you can fall away from practicing and believing Christianity, without losing your eternal salvation. I also believe in false conversion, where the person was never sincere in accepting Jesus. Jesus said He'll say to those who tell Him in the afterlife "I performed miracles, I cast out demons in your name, and did all these wonderful works", He'll say to them "I never knew you." (Never once.)
Kraichgauer wrote:
Also, we're not big on the notion that we can "accept" Christ - that is, take an active part in our own conversion. Rather, we believe that our salvation is entirely in God's able hands, not our own - even if it may seem that way if conversion comes in later life.
Well, I do believe that the Holy Spirit leads a person to salvation, but that it is still a conscious and deliberate decision of acceptance on the part of the person. I know we've talked long about this before.
I'm sorry, but that's where you and I part ways. Without God's grace, earned for us by Christ, we are in a natural state of rebellion against God. And while predestination is today an unpopular subject, Paul tells us we were foreknown and predestined by God, leading us to believe our salvation is entirely in God's able hands.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Some people were predestined for salvation, yes. But nowhere does it say people were predestined for damnation. So choice can be involved. Of course God would know the future, but God knowing the future doesn't stop future people from thinking and making decisions, it just means He's know them all ahead of time.
Acceptance of salvation involves the will, it's not God alone. He doesn't force us to convert. Otherwise, no Gospel would have been needed to be preached, no sermon on Mars hill by Paul -- in fact, all sermons would be pointless, because God could lead the predestined people to salvation like cosmically-controlled zombies and they would automatically believe.
To be honest, what importance would the exact identity of the salvation mechanism have in the real world? Also, what do you do with verses like, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance"? (2 Pet 3:9)
If He could predestinate everyone to come to Him regardless of their will, and it says He does want anyone to go to Hell, then why didn't He predestinate everyone to go to Heaven? As it is, MOST people will go to Hell: Jesus said, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it" (Matt 7:13-14).
I never said there was a predestination to damnation - that was Calvin, not Luther. Rather, it's a matter that we are all by our very natures in rebellion against God, and so could not come to him because we would not want to. It's not a matter of us being zombies, but a matter of God making us his children and friends. While we believe we can't by our own power accept Christ, we still can make the choice not to. In the end, we should take comfort in knowing we are in God's grace, rather than trying to understand why others might not be. Then again, it's not up to us to decide who's saved, and who isn't - that's entirely God's job.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
13 Apr 2012, 6:04 am
Ragtime wrote:
01001011 wrote:
Really, do you expect any bible quotation to hold any water when arguing with anyone who dismisses your magic book?
Only if the book contains remarkable wisdom, and tells accurate and deeply-insightful things about the world, human nature, and the future. The degree of Jesus' of wisdom found in the Gospels cannot not be faked. The scattering of the Jews from their homeland to all over the earth, and their being regathered to their homeland again, was prophesied before the time of Christ. The first part of that prophecy came true in 70AD, and the second happened in the 20th century. That's a pretty far-reaching prophecy, as well as an unlikely one to come true, given just how scattered they were. Such a scattering and regathering of a single people, while keeping the same God and language all throughout the process, is without parallel in world history. God did it.
We have the typical 'prophecy'. Either vague, obvious, or self full-filling.
13 Apr 2012, 6:22 am
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
"Christianity was not responsible for all of the atrocities done in its name, because all of those people were fake Christians!! !" -Christians hundreds of years later
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time
You'd make a great point here -- if there were no manual people could reference on how to be a Christian.
Jesus: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matt 5:44)
Jesus' doctrines are in a Book that virtually everyone has access to, so being wilfully blind as to what a Christian is, and then assuming that only the most evil of the those in all of history who called themselves "Christians" were the real Christians, is obviously a total intentional bias aimed at a pre-determined conclusion. You get out of analysis what you put into it. If you want to see Christians as evil, you will, even when Jesus said His true followers love everyone and behave very well indeed.
We have a book that is a bunch of nonsense that people can interpreted whethever they like. Any analysis is just as baised as the others.
13 Apr 2012, 9:20 am
01001011 wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
"Christianity was not responsible for all of the atrocities done in its name, because all of those people were fake Christians!! !" -Christians hundreds of years later
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time
You'd make a great point here -- if there were no manual people could reference on how to be a Christian.
Jesus: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matt 5:44)
Jesus' doctrines are in a Book that virtually everyone has access to, so being wilfully blind as to what a Christian is, and then assuming that only the most evil of the those in all of history who called themselves "Christians" were the real Christians, is obviously a total intentional bias aimed at a pre-determined conclusion. You get out of analysis what you put into it. If you want to see Christians as evil, you will, even when Jesus said His true followers love everyone and behave very well indeed.
We have a book that is a bunch of nonsense that people can interpreted whethever they like. Any analysis is just as baised as the others.
Okay. You're being obtuse. We get it. Congratulations on not seeing.
_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
13 Apr 2012, 12:45 pm
Ragtime wrote:
01001011 wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
"Christianity was not responsible for all of the atrocities done in its name, because all of those people were fake Christians!! !" -Christians hundreds of years later
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time
You'd make a great point here -- if there were no manual people could reference on how to be a Christian.
Jesus: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matt 5:44)
Jesus' doctrines are in a Book that virtually everyone has access to, so being wilfully blind as to what a Christian is, and then assuming that only the most evil of the those in all of history who called themselves "Christians" were the real Christians, is obviously a total intentional bias aimed at a pre-determined conclusion. You get out of analysis what you put into it. If you want to see Christians as evil, you will, even when Jesus said His true followers love everyone and behave very well indeed.
We have a book that is a bunch of nonsense that people can interpreted whethever they like. Any analysis is just as baised as the others.
Okay. You're being obtuse. We get it. Congratulations on not seeing.
You are clearly interpreting your fairytales differently than other Christians on this forum. Are you the only real Christian? Based on your past statements, I would say your answer would be "Yes" if you choose to answer that at all
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Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
Joker
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13 Apr 2012, 1:55 pm
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
01001011 wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
"Christianity was not responsible for all of the atrocities done in its name, because all of those people were fake Christians!! !" -Christians hundreds of years later
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time
You'd make a great point here -- if there were no manual people could reference on how to be a Christian.
Jesus: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matt 5:44)
Jesus' doctrines are in a Book that virtually everyone has access to, so being wilfully blind as to what a Christian is, and then assuming that only the most evil of the those in all of history who called themselves "Christians" were the real Christians, is obviously a total intentional bias aimed at a pre-determined conclusion. You get out of analysis what you put into it. If you want to see Christians as evil, you will, even when Jesus said His true followers love everyone and behave very well indeed.
We have a book that is a bunch of nonsense that people can interpreted whethever they like. Any analysis is just as baised as the others.
Okay. You're being obtuse. We get it. Congratulations on not seeing.
You are clearly interpreting your fairytales differently than other Christians on this forum. Are you the only real Christian? Based on your past statements, I would say your answer would be "Yes" if you choose to answer that at all
I would have to say he has a lot of passion but I am like a mulsim for example I refuse to go into deep detail about my faith because people will attack me for it as seen in other threads.
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