Examples of How Feminism Helps Men.

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hyperlexian
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22 Apr 2012, 4:03 pm

TM wrote:

sage_gerard wrote:

I would say that if egalitarianism is the goal, neither feminism or masculanism have any function other than to act as political weapons when things shift out of balance. Overall, I feel feminism and masculanism are harmful to everyone if people only make a point to listen to just one of them.

All ideologies are filled to the brim with bs that cover up the basic principles of the ideology and every ideology is perverted by each subject. Every ideology becomes personally interpreted through various psychological biases a person has, then reflects what the person believed in the first place.

The more self-righteous and convinced the proponent of an ideology is, the more that person should be ignored.

the exact same thing could be said of every person who opposes an ideology.

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Joker
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22 Apr 2012, 4:03 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

sage_gerard wrote:

There you go with the generalizations again. :wink:

Based on what I've seen so far, I do not think there are many radicals here. The fact that you are allowed to challenge some aspects of feminism without a moderator stomping out the thread is a sign that your freedom to speak is valued here. I'd be cautious of sites that flat out prohibit certain kinds of discussion that the owners do not like.

thank you for this. every single feminist who has been involved in the debates on WrongPlanet, who has been asked if s/he supports men's rights and issues, has signaled support of these areas to varying degrees.

even radical feminists may support some of those areas - frankly they are not so organised that they have an outlined set of philosophies and ideas that they must agree to. it's a fairly loose movement. just like calling one person a theist doesn't mean that they would necessarily share much in common with another theist.

but Terlingua seems to have an agenda to discredit feminism, considering that he has not responded to most of the posts on this thread (or the other one) that undermine his presuppositions.

I support both gender rights I just identify more as a female then I do a male.

Terlingua
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22 Apr 2012, 4:04 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

ArrantPariah wrote:

CrazyCatLord wrote:

We don't see the same low wages in social democracies where most workers are unionized. If the low middle class wages in the USA were solely the result of feminism, we should see the same situation in all other countries with equal gender employment opportunities.

In the USA, many people have been raised to believe that unions are evil, "big government" is evil, taxes are evil, universal health care is evil, and the government shouldn't be involved in the education system. This leads to political decisions that create a socioeconomic environment where employers control wages, little money is spent on public infrastructure/transportation (which forces families to own two cars), and decent education as well as health insurance are extremely expensive. The costs (gas prices etc.) have risen dramatically and the wages weren't adjusted accordingly. That's the main reason for the current situation, imho.

That's life in America.

Here, salary negotiation is a 2-way street. Employers offer a salary, which the prospective employee may take, leave, or negotiate for something higher. Women seem to undermine men by being willing to work for less, and then whine because they work for less.

women can ask for the same salary but get turned down. or they are not informed it is negotiable. it's definitely news to me that people negotiate their salary with the employers. i have never been given that option as far as i am aware.

It is not an option that you are given. You take it. I have recently hired two women who both negotiated, and received, a higher salary than we had initially offered. We use a salary scale that is based upon experience and qualifications. Generally the Human Resources department will use this scale and pick the lowest number in the applicants pay scale and offer them that. At that point of offer, it is the decision of the applicant whether to accept the offer or to write back with something along the lines of "I appreciate your getting back to me, but I must decline your offer at this time as I feel that my unique skills deserve higher compensation. Were you willing to increase your offer by 7 percent I would be much more receptive. Thank you for your time, and feel free to contact me at 555-5555"

At that point, the HR rep comes into the supervisors office and presents the counter offer. The supervisor, if it is within budget constraints, will normally approve the higher offer.

hyperlexian
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22 Apr 2012, 4:06 pm

i have been in the workforce for 25 years and did not know that i could negotiate a salary. how do people know it is possible?

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Vigilans
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22 Apr 2012, 4:07 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

TM wrote:

sage_gerard wrote:

the exact same thing could be said of every person who opposes an ideology.

I agree. It seems like the fires of discontent self righteousness burn brightest with the vehement opposition

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Joker
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22 Apr 2012, 4:08 pm

Vigilans wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

TM wrote:

sage_gerard wrote:

the exact same thing could be said of every person who opposes an ideology.

I agree. It seems like the fires of discontent self righteousness burn brightest with the vehement opposition

That is 100% true for any form of belief or opinon.

Terlingua
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22 Apr 2012, 4:11 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

but Terlingua seems to have an agenda to discredit feminism, considering that he has not responded to most of the posts on this thread (or the other one) that undermine his presuppositions.

Most of the posts on this thread are irrelevant to my questions and therefore do not require a response from me, but thanks for attacking me yet again. Oh, but I'm generalizing again, aren't I?

I do so love how you know the motives for my inquiries. It must be wonderful being psychic! Psychic ability makes you so very unbiased and empathic, doesn't it? Good for you!

Terlingua
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22 Apr 2012, 4:16 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

i have been in the workforce for 25 years and did not know that i could negotiate a salary. how do people know it is possible?

It took me years to figure it out myself. It isn''t something that a company will tell you, as they save money by not mentioning it. You usually find out when a coworker mentions it. Or if you are like me, you figure it out one day when you are sitting at your desk and the HR director comes to you and mentions that someone declined our offer but is willing to come on board for another $2 an hour. I looked at her blankly and said "....and?". She then went back to her office and e-mailed me our pay scale.

hyperlexian
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22 Apr 2012, 4:16 pm

Terlingua wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

but Terlingua seems to have an agenda to discredit feminism, considering that he has not responded to most of the posts on this thread (or the other one) that undermine his presuppositions.

didn't take you long to bring on the sarcasm. :lol:

you made it clear that this subject area is your special interest, and you also made it clear which side you are already on. after all, you did not start a thread asking for examples of how feminism does NOT benefit men because you already believe it DOES. you are approaching this topic from the perspective that feminism does NOT benefit men but asking for proof to the contrary (yet not accepting most of the responses)

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TM
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22 Apr 2012, 4:22 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

TM wrote:

sage_gerard wrote:

the exact same thing could be said of every person who opposes an ideology.

Anything can technically be said about anyone, whether or not its apt is a completely different question.

hyperlexian
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22 Apr 2012, 4:30 pm

TM wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

TM wrote:

sage_gerard wrote:

the exact same thing could be said of every person who opposes an ideology.

Anything can technically be said about anyone, whether or not its apt is a completely different question.

and it is.

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sage_gerard
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22 Apr 2012, 4:33 pm

Terlingua wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

but Terlingua seems to have an agenda to discredit feminism, considering that he has not responded to most of the posts on this thread (or the other one) that undermine his presuppositions.

No one is psychic. We are just detecting an attitude based on the tone in which you make your points.

Again, I'm all for men's rights. I have witnessed an unusual number of "Ground-Zero" fights between couples (two of which were married), where the mother/girlfriend always has the upper hand in the litigation that followed. I have been told that I am doomed to become a bigot simply because I am a man. I was the only male officer in my Phi Theta Kappa chapter last year, and I have to be kept separate from all of the others on trips unless I am under supervision. Stuff like this went on for years, and I spent a long time being seriously insecure about my gender identity.

hyperlexian has stated that she has seen women who empathize with men's issues, and I have not seen the hatred I grew up with present itself in this thread. The people here strike me as assertive, rational adults who are not afraid to challenge you. Believe me, on the Internet, it could be SO MUCH WORSE. Oh my God, so much worse... :evil:

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Last edited by sage_gerard on 22 Apr 2012, 4:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Terlingua
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22 Apr 2012, 4:33 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

Terlingua wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

but Terlingua seems to have an agenda to discredit feminism, considering that he has not responded to most of the posts on this thread (or the other one) that undermine his presuppositions.

didn't take you long to bring on the sarcasm. :lol:

Honestly, I have heard for some time that feminism promotes equality, but have never seen anything that indicates that it does. I had not been all that interested though, until I came here and saw the same claims among people I feel that I can identify with. If my mind has been swayed one way or the other, it was here that the swaying happened. I am currently optimistic that there may exist some groups of feminists out there that practice a philosophy which I can support thanks to the link provided me by sage_gerard. I am equally honest in stating that I am saddened by the fact that the largest feminist group in North America endorses continued discrimination rather than equality.

I am still searching for an Egalitarian Liberal Feminism group, but am beginning to fear that they are a minority as so far 8 pages of Google has not brought me to a group professing those ideas. I''ve found a few pages devoted to Christina Hoff Sommers, and quotes of hers appear to endorse the spirit of what I hope to find. I've yet to find a group which practices the principles expressed by her, though I have found a couple of feminist pages denouncing her as anti-feminist.

hyperlexian
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22 Apr 2012, 4:38 pm

why do you need to join a group? i am not a member of a group, yet i am a feminist.

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Joker
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22 Apr 2012, 4:42 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

why do you need to join a group? i am not a member of a group, yet i am a feminist.

I am not a member of a feminist group either and I am a feminist.

sage_gerard
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22 Apr 2012, 4:57 pm

Ok, I'd like to build on my first response in the thread.

Picture a brutal, oppressive state where the interests of group A are clearly held in higher regard than that of group B. B responds by assembling under an egalitarian ideology, BUT they focus almost entirely on B's issues. At first that seems odd because, as I've said earlier, I do not think that any group that defends its own interests alone can speak of equality for all. I stand by this, but I feel that B is in a position where caring about itself is really all it has left. At that point, "equality" means "living without asking for permission".

Feminism helped men by humbling them into understanding that they do not possess women. I am assuming that feminism is by nature pro-woman and not pro-equality, but that does not mean its ideals cannot come in handy when women have no other doctrine to turn to when discussing the rights associated with their sex.

I would also argue that masculinism helps women for the same reasons. Just swap all references to women to men and vise versa in the stuff I said above.

Quote:

I am still searching for an Egalitarian Liberal Feminism group, but am beginning to fear that they are a minority

Rationality and representation have a disappointing relationship in the U.S.

Imagine how I felt when one of my advisors tole me the Electoral College had no strict academic requirements.

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