Australia: land of kangroos, people that need to lighten up

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I've just gone where the thread has, I don't think I even entered it until well past the point where it became less about the photo itself and more about gun policy.

That being said, I think you're missing my point, as of all the "underlying issues" I'm speaking of as being most relevant to violent crime, "gun culture" is not among them.

Remember that I'm part of that "gun culture", I hold a gunsmithing degree, which means that many of my friends and classmates are also gun people, and their friends and family follow a similar pattern. If gun culture was the problem, you'd expect to see a lot of violence and criminality in and around the group, and that's not only not the case but the very opposite. My home state is in the top 5 in the nation for concealed carry permits with around 16% of the population licensed to carry, and yet we have extremely low rates of violent crime.
Internationally, I can point to countries with strict gun control and massive crime (Mexico), strict gun control and low crime (Japan), lax gun control and low crime (Switzerland), or lax gun control and moderate crime (USA); in every case it is non-gun related factors that account for the variations in crime, not the availability of guns. If you really insist, I can dig out the charts and graphs and analysis again, but as this is the umpteenth time I've argued this issue I'd prefer not to have to get that far into it.

If you like, I can even get the graph showing how Australia's overall violent crime was (non)affected by their gun ban, and visually illustrate exactly why I think the Aussies are being ridiculous by making such a stink over such a non-issue.

OH NO!

PEOPLE FROM A DIFFERENT CULTURE CRITICIZED GUNS!

I CAN'T TAKE IT.

Oh Noez,
People are talking about yet another topic on which I'm ignorant!

MUST MAKE POINTLESS COMMENT!! !!

Right, we should stop using the vague term "gun culture", since some people assume that it refers to negative gun culture and some people assume that it refers to positive gun culture. What you describe is an example of positive gun culture. But are you really saying that negative gun culture is not a major factor in why some countries have higher rates of gun-related crime than others?




But if the "non-gun related factors" are not to do with negative gun culture, and they're not to do with legislation, what on earth are they?



I don't know whether you're referring to the Aussies in the article or (some of) the Aussies in this thread. If the former, then you are being unfair. The Aussies in the article are not making a stink about people breaking Australia's gun laws. They are making a stink about a photo which trivialises guns and makes them seem "cool". You have a gunsmithing degree, right? Surely they taught you that guns are dangerous tools, and not to be taken lightly?

I was slightly annoyed at the attitude toward Australians and guns displayed on this thread which is why I barged in on the gun lobby parade that was starting to take place on this thread.

I certainly don't want that type of American "gun culture" associated with right wing politics (Neo-Nazis and the Tea party) coming to Australia and applaud the AOC for punishing Darcy and Monk for the glamorization of guns.

What do you mean by "negative gun culture"? Illegal gun culture? I would point out that by it's very nature criminal culture is already illegal, but I'm not completely sure what you're talking about here. There is an interesting divide within US gun culture between people who grew up hunting and with firearms generally being around and those who came to them later in life and usually place a higher emphasis on pistols and self defense, but neither culture could really be called inherently negative. I'm a non-hunter myself, I didn't grow up with firearms but rather became interested in my teens and educated myself, which places me in the gun culture 2.0 category.



Poverty, treatment of mental health, corruption, the drug war, etc. Consider this simple thought experiment; if I put a gun in your hand right now, would it in and of itself make you more or less inclined to do something violent? Now imagine that you're in desperate circumstances and violence seems the only way out, would you choose the most effective or least effective weapon you have access to? Gun availability might effect what tools are used for violence, but the cause of the violence itself is entirely different.



Guns are cool, haven't you heard?

In America, that sort of judgment and action would be called a "content based restriction" and would be illegal if the state did it, but as I understand it Australians don't have nor want the freedom of speech that we enjoy here.

I also don't think the photo depicts any dangerous behavior, two guys posing with unloaded guns that are not pointed at anything under controlled conditions is hardly reckless. It would be a different case if they were pointing the guns at each other or otherwise being unsafe with them, but that doesn't seem to have been the situation.

That leaves the "glamorizing" aspect, and I'm only half-joking when I say that guns are in fact cool; most weapons are and it just seems ridiculous to try and stamp that out via nannying. You know that scene that they often have in the movies, the one where the guy who's never handled a gun before gets his hands on one and starts posing and playing with it? That's pretty true to life, even people who claim to hate the things will get this funny smile on their face if you put one in their hand, and be seemingly inexorably drawn to pointing it at things, posing, racking the action, etc. I've actually done this and observed the behavior many times, I suspect it's like power tools or muscle cars to many men and some women, there's just an ingrained fascination and desire when you're talking about a powerful item. But I digress.

Back to your room Junior! Serious people are talking.

You can come back when you have any knowledge or experience with American gun culture, not just ignorance and a strong opinion.

Sure, I understand that there are certain contexts for guns which do not raise problems. Not to be too stereotypical, but I occasionally shoot rabbits on my family's farm. And if I lived in a dangerous area, I might consider owning a gun for personal protection. But I don't think that the photograph in question is related to either of these contexts. The photograph is sending out the message: "Guns are cool." It conceals the true significance of guns: guns are tools which are used to kill things.

Consider this as an analogy: I think that there are legitimate uses for cars. But if I saw a Youtube video of teenagers being stupid with cars, I would condemn it as irresponsible.



You're confusing free-speech issues with moral judgment issues and the rights of private organisations. Nobody is saying that it should be illegal to create such a photograph! They are saying that it is irresponsible and sends the wrong message. If Swimming Australia demands that the photograph be taken down or else they will reprimand the swimmers, that is entirely a private issue and could legally happen anywhere, including the US. Are you saying that in the US, it is illegal for a private club to fire me for saying something they don't like? Of course it isn't illegal.

Last edited by Declension on 20 Jun 2012, 1:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

anyone concerned about the reputation of their activities should adjust them accordingly instead of expecting others to adjust theirs, if not its another argument.

I said it before but I'll say it again; guns are cool, it's not a message that needs athletes in photographs to spread. I also fail to see what's wrong with sending the "guns are cool" message even if it weren't already out there; your message seems to be that there is something inherently wrong with gun ownership and that promoting it in any way is wrong, which I of course reject.

I also didn't really get an answer as to what "gun culture" you were referring to as negative. Maybe you meant that there are irresponsible people within gun culture? I'd give you that, but then argue that correct information and instruction, not censorious overreaction, are the proper responses.



Gotta split hairs a bit and mention context, as "responsible use" of anything depends to a certain extent upon the context. I know some pretty young dirt-bike racers, for example, who certainly do things with their bikes that wouldn't be safe for an average rider to do yet are not particularly dangerous for them given their experience. I also know some pretty young martial artists who wave blades around in ways that certainly look dangerous, but again are completely responsible in light of their training. This picture was just two guys posing with unloaded guns in a shop, no pointing, no horseplay, no irresponsibility that was visible in the picture. Did they look like tourists pulling movie poses? Yep, but that's not dangerous or illegal.



Fair enough, but the fact that they've been sanctioned at all is still ridiculous, and I'll continue to say so.



What message is that?



Is Swimming Australia an entirely private entity? Did they have a "don't pose with firearms" policy in effect before this happened, or did they just make it up on the fly? Regardless, I've never argued against their ability to do what they've done (unless they are government affiliated, in which case I don't believe they should have that power), merely pointed out the stupidity of the whole thing. In other words, I think they're censorious asshats whether I think they're within their legal rights or not.

Not at all. In fact, I see my position as being the exact opposite of that. Let me put it this way: if I went into a gun store, would I pose like that? No, never. Why? Well, one of the reasons is that my family owns a rifle, and I have used it to kill things. That is a factor in why I take guns seriously.



You need to understand that in Australasia, the phrase "gun culture" is almost always used negatively. I can't think of a better summary of what I am referring to than the photograph itself. Look at it. In the photograph, guns are seen as toys. It's like a video game, or a movie. It erodes the mental connection between guns and death.



This thread reminds me of an earlier thread where Americans were getting all worked up about a European country not having the death penalty. If the US were some sort of shining example with very little violent crime, maybe people would be more likely to listen to your recommendations. You have already admitted that there are some "factors" in US society which result in a higher gun crime rate. Why would you mock another country which is attempting to avoid these factors?



I have no idea about how government-affiliated Swimming Australia is. But it's certainly at least a pseudo-private entity. It has its own constitution. Anyway, the idea that the US has glorious constitutional provisions which would prevent such a thing is just false. The Boy Scouts of America explicitly discriminates against gays and nonbelievers, and it receives huge support from federal and local government.

Last edited by Declension on 20 Jun 2012, 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

It's pretty obvious in the picture that the guy on the left is making an attempt to mock gang culture, which guns are an integral part. It is what some in other countries identify as the dangerous part of American Gun culture as an integral part of the entire gun culture . Not the gun culture where I live, that is associated with hunting, where people have a great deal of respect for their guns, and hunting is a major focus of life, for a good part of the year.

Part of the problem with the article quoted in this thread, is it doesn't draw attention to the fact that the guy on the left with the smirk and the attempted "gangsta" pose, has two guns not one.

If the guy on the right is attempting to mock the "gangsta" gun culture, he's not doing a very good job of it, and if both of them were posing like that, I'm not sure that the AOC would have seen it as offensive considering the concerns in that country over rising gang violence associated with contraband guns. However, they had already been bad news for the image of the Swim team, for good reason, so they were already on a short rope.

It's interesting looking at the comments beyond this thread, from the American general public, of the defense of guns that have been taken by most, whereas if it had been an African American football player in the picture, the focus would have likely been at the person and "gangsta" culture instead of the defense of the guns.

That's part of the problem, where defense of the guns, is more important than the fact that the photo minimizes the serious nature of actual gang violence.

For those people reading American comments on the issue in countries like Australia and the UK, it reinforces the negative image of US gun culture that exists in other countries, whether only warranted in criminal activity or not, as sensationalized in stories like the one below, from the Herald Sun in Australia.

Not likely it would be much of an issue, if it was just another couple of guys in the general public, but it promotes a poor image of gun culture, because of the amount of attention the image has received, regardless of where the photo might be taken, in that it minimizes the violent aspect of gang activity associated with guns.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/gun-culture-on-the-rise/story-e6frf7l6-1226332737765

Yes, Dox47, just as you suspected, everyone who disagrees with you on a topic is ignorant about that topic.

Not everyone, mostly just you and Cyberdad in this case. I can see how you'd think I say that to everyone though, seeing as you've yet to make an informed comment that I've seen.

[/quote]

Exactly

I'm pretty sure I am older than you.



Here's links that shows an association between gun owners, right wing racists and the Tea Party.
http://www.examiner.com/article/kkk-beg ... un-control
http://multi.lectical.net/content/redne ... strategies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S38VioxnBaI
http://thinkprogress.org/security/2010/ ... ?mobile=nc

and here's the missing piece of the puzzle
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-573 ... un-charge/
http://www.freewoodpost.com/2012/03/22/ ... gislation/
http://www.today.ucla.edu/portal/ut/the ... 78589.aspx

The evidence is overwhelming for the connection between gun ownership, support for the Republicans/Tea Party, Connection to right wing extremism.

Dow we want this type of right wing movement in AUstralia....no thanks....