Australia: land of kangroos, people that need to lighten up
12 Jun 2012, 4:24 am
I love it when the anti-gun people make my arguments for me. Safe storage? Safe for the criminals, maybe...
_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson
12 Jun 2012, 5:56 am
I love it when the anti-gun people make my arguments for me. Safe storage? Safe for the criminals, maybe...
No storage? so do you walk around with a pistol or sawn off shot gun under your jacket?
12 Jun 2012, 8:36 am
Yes there is a lot of paranoia in this day and age, but that has jack sh** to do with some sort of a "gun culture". The media highlighting all the crazy sh** that goes on makes people think violent crime occurs more frequently than it actually does. But since you have some sort of an axe to grind with guns, you would rather point the finger than really look at the issue in an open minded way. Because if you did, you would realize not everything about crime, violence, and the perception of those things revolve around gun policies or "gun culture".
It drives me nuts when it comes to how agenda-ridden the subject of crime is. Here's a little joke for everyone. What causes crime? Whatever you have an axe to grind with.
If you're a feminist that hates patriarchy, you will blame crime on that. If you're a social conservative that hates the moral decline of the past few decades, you will blame crime on that. If you're a liberal, you will blame crime on racism and inequality. Everyone wants to point their finger at one factor and act like their agenda is the holy grail to it.
Pointless disclaimer for the folks that are eager to give me a patronizing lecture on logic: I am not saying every single social conservative, liberal, or feminist believes those things. I am oversimplifying to make a point about how having an agenda makes people blame one thing to the exclusion of all else.
All well and good if you love gun culture (also known as thug culture) living in the USA and have the second amendment to fall back on. This amendment was created to bestow upon the early American settlers the right to be armed due to paranoia over the return of the British imperial forces, the French, Mexicans and native american tribes all of whom were a physical threat to families living in "frontier land". Those days are gone now but the paranoia and gun love is still hanging around.
I suspect you missed my earlier post re: Australia. Under Australian law before someone can buy a firearm, he or she must obtain a Permit To Acquire. The first permit has a mandatory 28-day delay before it is first issued. In some states (e.g. Queensland, Victoria, and New South Wales), this is waived for second and subsequent firearms of the same class. For each firearm a "Genuine Reason" must be given, relating to pest control, hunting, target shooting, or "collecting". Self-defense is not accepted by either the state or federal government as a reason for issuing a license.
12 Jun 2012, 3:45 pm
(What's up with the tangent hopping and action film references?)
Yes, it's just like that; if more people kill themselves in a country that doesn't have many firearms compared to one that does, something else is the actual reason. Object doesn't equal cause.
I know all about the storage laws here (being as I have to comply with such). Takes me all of 10 seconds to unlock my safe and ammunition box, but that's for emergencies regarding feral animals and such; I can't see ever needing to use such for self-defense (whilst it's not a valid reason to "own" one, one is able to utilize a firearm for such in Oz. Did a whole subject on that in Criminal Justice). But, they're still there if I ever need them. I own such for recreation, for fun, like people owning a motorbike (which would be far more dangerous to one's health going by statistics).
I bet owning a swimming pool is just as "dangerous" for the household. Kids drown. Kids shoot themselves. It's the parents' fault in both cases, not the pool or firearm. Punishing responsible individuals for the acts of the stupid kinda...defeats the purpose of justice.
12 Jun 2012, 5:48 pm
As a matter of fact, I do; pistol, not cut down. I have a permit to do so, which required a rather thorough federal background check and a full set of fingerprints, among other things.
Incidentally, the last murder in my town was committed by the police.
_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson
12 Jun 2012, 8:53 pm
None of that here, no safes or trigger locks, and no carry permit needed just to go to your car, and from your car to place of business, which covers most places. The car is your house here.
We have a lot of guns, a lot of people carry, and who gets killed is still a culture thing.
Up to the 1870 dueling was legal, swords or pistols at dawn, which kept a polite society. We have one Oak tree where over a hundred died, over a hundred years, and it was enough to keep everyone else aware of their behavior.
The automobile has killed more than the wars, and it does nothing to improve behavior.
It is not the means we kill people with, the auto is the big killer, the little hand gun less often used. It is the option to act that all of these laws wish to remove.
The same language was used about our barberic practice of inviting people to meet us under the oaks, offering the choice of weapons, an equal match with seconds and judges, and often a doctor.
Our Principal of, "All men are created equal," Took Sam Colt to perfect.
Football players do not want the people they bully to face them at dawn for a single shot, they want big to win. Regulating weapons give the advantage to large people.
Our entire development started after the spear thrower that gave a smaller person a weapon that could kill at range, and no longer did the largest and meanest rule everything. We progressed by killing off god given authority figures, and making the rest mind their manners.
This foolish movement is asking to return to might makes right as our neighborhood social order. Larger people will bully smaller, but not to the point where they can be charged with assult.
From the Bronze Age on just about everyone carried a dagger, sword, just to keep behavior in check. Then it was guns, and now, with more people, disarming people will bring back a world we have kept down through superior defense.
Sure enough, the Thugs, Bullys, Muggers, are becoming a real problem.
Guys named Biff do not like skinny geeks being armed, it spoils their funnin around. Their daddy is a cop, they will be too, and are just getting in some practice slaping people in the back of the head. Somebody has to teach these people to show proper fear and respect for their superiors!
You can change the law, you cannot change 40,000 years of history.
12 Jun 2012, 9:49 pm
As a matter of fact, I do; pistol, not cut down. I have a permit to do so, which required a rather thorough federal background check and a full set of fingerprints, among other things.
Incidentally, the last murder in my town was committed by the police.
Sorry living in Australia we are bit sheltered from this stuff. Are you saying that in the US a civilian can be issued a license to carry a pistol locked and loaded? What happens when you walk into a bank?
12 Jun 2012, 9:55 pm
Yes there is a lot of paranoia in this day and age, but that has jack sh** to do with some sort of a "gun culture". The media highlighting all the crazy sh** that goes on makes people think violent crime occurs more frequently than it actually does. But since you have some sort of an axe to grind with guns, you would rather point the finger than really look at the issue in an open minded way. Because if you did, you would realize not everything about crime, violence, and the perception of those things revolve around gun policies or "gun culture".
It drives me nuts when it comes to how agenda-ridden the subject of crime is. Here's a little joke for everyone. What causes crime? Whatever you have an axe to grind with.
If you're a feminist that hates patriarchy, you will blame crime on that. If you're a social conservative that hates the moral decline of the past few decades, you will blame crime on that. If you're a liberal, you will blame crime on racism and inequality. Everyone wants to point their finger at one factor and act like their agenda is the holy grail to it.
Pointless disclaimer for the folks that are eager to give me a patronizing lecture on logic: I am not saying every single social conservative, liberal, or feminist believes those things. I am oversimplifying to make a point about how having an agenda makes people blame one thing to the exclusion of all else.
All well and good if you love gun culture (also known as thug culture) living in the USA and have the second amendment to fall back on. This amendment was created to bestow upon the early American settlers the right to be armed due to paranoia over the return of the British imperial forces, the French, Mexicans and native american tribes all of whom were a physical threat to families living in "frontier land". Those days are gone now but the paranoia and gun love is still hanging around.
I suspect you missed my earlier post re: Australia. Under Australian law before someone can buy a firearm, he or she must obtain a Permit To Acquire. The first permit has a mandatory 28-day delay before it is first issued. In some states (e.g. Queensland, Victoria, and New South Wales), this is waived for second and subsequent firearms of the same class. For each firearm a "Genuine Reason" must be given, relating to pest control, hunting, target shooting, or "collecting". Self-defense is not accepted by either the state or federal government as a reason for issuing a license.
Smug and insulting? I'm just giving you the courtesy of what the "actual" situation is in Australia re: gun licences. Our former prime minister John Howard did one thing right he started a gun buy back policy to take automatic weapons out of neighborhoods. The 1996 Buyback took 600,000 newly illegal sporting firearms, including all semi-automatic rifles including .22 rimfires, semi-automatic shotguns and pump-action shotguns.
12 Jun 2012, 10:00 pm
more stuff .
All of which is academic my gun toting friend. Here's the reality
http://arstechnica.com/science/2011/04/ ... ambiguity/
12 Jun 2012, 11:23 pm
I'm sure accidents and whatnot are far, far more common than self-defense situations, as it points out. That would be a study from the US too. I'm also sure that if you took away all the firearms the actual rate of accidental death wouldn't change much (if at all); people hurt themselves. No one should actually drive a car due to the amount of deaths that are caused by such (not to mention the coming environmental disaster); they're far more "deadly" for the innocent. We don't need to live far from work, and it'd be better for us to walk (not ride, as riding a bike is dangerous).
Again, stupid people do stupid things; you can't regulate stupid.
I can speak with 100% certainty that my home is safe with firearms in such. Now, I can't say my home is 100% safe due to the stairs in it.
Concerning the regulation of 1996: read up on how the murder rate is actually the same. Less murders involving firearms, yes, but the murders involving other means has risen. A stupid man killing his family in a fit of emotional rage with a kitchen knife isn't any different than if he used a firearm.
13 Jun 2012, 12:26 am
- bicycles are for recreational riding
- cars are for transport
- swimming pools are for swimming
- kitchen knives are for preparing food
- guns are for killing
Now take a guess which is the odd one out in a middle class suburban household?
It involves quite a lot of effort to kill your family with a kitchen knife. Whereas a gun is like a ready made killing machine conveniently designed to wipe out a "stupid mans" family in a few pops.
13 Jun 2012, 2:00 am
- Firearms are for recreational shooting (a sport worldwide)
- (many other valid reasons for firearms)
- Swords for martial arts
- Bows for recreational shooting
- Cars for recreation
- Smoking for recreation
- Swimming in the ocean for recreation
- Contact sports
All are valid too, and all can be equally dangerous.
Several years ago a man killed his family with a kitchen knife here. Would the victims care if they were shot instead? Don't bring up "ease of use" when unarmed victims are concerned, as a firearm isn't any easier to use as a weapon as a knife (I have a long history of martial arts and shooting events to draw an adequate conclusion). A firearm just beats a knife in most cases due to its inherent range advantage, just as a shotgun/rifle beats a pistol. Firearms don't make "pops".
The only time a firearm can be of a large advantage in regards to murder is when utilizing a high capacity firearm in the usual rampaging events, but they're statistical outliers in regards to how often they happen. Martin Bryant and Anders Breivik are outliers.
Do we base law on outliers?
O, and last I heard, about 1 in 20 people in my state have a firearm license. That's a fairly high number. You rarely hear of murders involving firearms here, much less ones held by people who have a license (people who hold such have to be entirely "clean" too).
13 Jun 2012, 3:29 am
Do we base law on outliers?.
Not sure why you are choosing mass murderers as like Bryant and Breviek as exemplars.
How about kids who pick up their daddies rifle at home and decide to shoot little Johnny's head off or kill a parent whom is abusive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiBJj9sQbrM
(((Not surprisingly many gun lovers seem to also be abusive parents.)))
I retract the last statement
Last edited by cyberdad on 13 Jun 2012, 8:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
13 Jun 2012, 3:57 am
Actually, I only need the license to carry concealed, any citizen in my state can legally open carry provided that they meet the legal requirements to own the gun in the first place. I believe 49 out of 50 states issue carry licenses, and most of them are the more permissive "shall issue" type. Strangely enough, gun ownership and carry permits are at all time highs while violent crime is at a historic low...
Also, you've equated "gun culture" with "thug culture" and otherwise spoke as if you know something about this subject, and yet you don't seem to know the most basic thing about US gun laws or culture. In my thuggish culture, it's considered proper to know what you're talking about before voicing your opinion on a subject, but I guess that's not a universal value. I've built a number of my guns from scratch and hold a degree in the subject, so you might want to do a bit of research before replying in the future.
I go to the counter and withdraw or deposit money?
What did you think would happen?
_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson
13 Jun 2012, 4:01 am
http://arstechnica.com/science/2011/04/ ... ambiguity/
A study that shows you're more likely to be shot if you live around guns? Kinda like you're more likely to get cut if you work in a kitchen? Or more likely to drown if you own a pool? Or more likely to be in a car crash if you drive often? Pfft.
Come back with an example of a violent country that was made non-violent by removing the guns...
I'll wait.
_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson
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